Oops...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Hmmm...

Why was I thinking there's a case play or interp that says we don't call this unless we catch it after the ball has been inbounded?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Why was I thinking there's a case play or interp that says we don't call this unless we catch it after the ball has been inbounded?

Because most times if we catch it before the thrower-in releases the ball we kill the play and fix it even though technically we should call a technical when the ball is at their disposal.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Because most times if we catch it before the thrower-in releases the ball we kill the play and fix it even though technically we should call a technical when the ball is at their disposal.

That's probably it.

[Loudwhistle2]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Because most times if we catch it before the thrower-in releases the ball we kill the play and fix it even though technically we should call a technical when the ball is at their disposal.

Help me out here. If I see 6 on the floor before I give the thrower the ball, then I don't call the technical. Tell coach 6 on the floor. Problem fixed. If the ball is live (thrower has the ball) I do call the technical. Is this correct?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle2

Help me out here. If I see 6 on the floor before I give the thrower the ball, then I don't call the technical. Tell coach 6 on the floor. Problem fixed. If the ball is live (thrower has the ball) I do call the technical. Is this correct?

Per the rules, yes.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle2

Help me out here. If I see 6 on the floor before I give the thrower the ball, then I don't call the technical. Tell coach 6 on the floor. Problem fixed. If the ball is live (thrower has the ball) I do call the technical. Is this correct?

Yes.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle2

Help me out here. If I see 6 on the floor before I give the thrower the ball, then I don't call the technical. Tell coach 6 on the floor. Problem fixed. If the ball is live (thrower has the ball) I do call the technical. Is this correct?

Rule 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated.

Here’s the only casebook play involving more than five team members participating simultaneously: 10.1.6 Situation: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Here’s my problem. I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means, as well as what "while being violated" means. If there are six team members participating, does it matter whether, or not, the ball is dead, live, clock running, clock not running, or if there is, or isn't, a timeout (not an intermission)? What defines whether, or not, a player is participating? Does it have to be during a live ball, clock running, situation? Can it be during a live ball, clock stopped situation, i.e., ball at disposal of free throw shooter? Can it be during a dead ball, clock running situation, i.e. dead ball immediately after a made field goal? How about during a dead ball, clock stopped situation, i.e during a timeout?

Here are some situations that are confusing me:

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call? Please note that in 10.1.6 SITUATION (b) (above) the officials were not aware of the additional player until after time expires, which, to me, means the same as an intermission, when all team members are bench personnel. The situation that I have described here in not during an intermission, but is during a timeout.

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here’s my problem. I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means, as well as what "while being violated" means.

I was tempted to just link to my own post in another thread, but hey, why not just post the pic?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I was tempted to just link to my own post in another thread, but hey, why not just post the pic?

Loudwhistle2 was asking for help. Well, so am I. So please help.

It is my contention that once six players get into the game, it's not as cut and dry as most people would assume to charge the technical foul. There's no defined time limit, like a correctable error, but there are limits. That's why it's imperative to do some preventative officiating to keep this from happening in the first place.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

But hey, why not just post the pic?

Hey. That's my line.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Rule 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated.





A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call? Please note that in 10.1.6 SITUATION (b) (above) the officials were not aware of the additional player until after time expires, which, to me, means the same as an intermission, when all team members are bench personnel. The situation that I have described here in not during an intermission, but is during a timeout.

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

I've got a T in all of these, Billy.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I've got a T in all of these, Billy.

Thanks. Others may differ with you, including my local interpreter, who couldn't get any help from either the NFHS, nor IAABO, on these plays. It's like these plays were covered with smallpox viruses, or bubonic plague bacteria, and nobody wanted to touch them.

By the way? Are you up to date on your vaccinations?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks. Others may differ with you, including my local interpreter, who couldn't get any help from either the NFHS, nor IAABO, on these plays. It's like these plays were covered with smallpox viruses, or bubonic plague bacteria, and nobody wanted to touch them.

By the way? Are you up to date on your vaccinations?

Until somebody tells me different, and they often do, go with something simple.
Who participates? Players. By definition, all 6 on the court are players in all these situations, are they not?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Why was I thinking there's a case play or interp that says we don't call this unless we catch it after the ball has been inbounded?

You're thinking of the time frame to correct giving the ball to the incorrect team.

[HawkeyeCubP]

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