Uncalled Cheap Shots

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I get what you're saying, but calling earlier fouls intentional sends a message. Closing on the foulers and using your voice sends a message. Calling the flagrant foul when it happens sends a message.

Doing nothing sends a message, too.

I am not talking about sending messages. Just stating that we can call whatever we want and if a coach and player do not care, then they will not care and there is not much we can do about it. Even if we call a flagrant foul there are coaches that will condone the behavior. How many times have we given a T to a player or a coach only for them to say, "I did not do anything."

I had a player used profanity and the big "F word" and I gave him a T. Do you know what the school claimed in a report later? They said he did not use any profanity and they focused on what I did based on an non-related issues with uniforms where we started the T. And I went directly to the coach who did not hear the words and told him word for word was was said by this player.

Coaches and players only behave properly if they have ethics or standards to live up to. If the coach was concerned about anything like that here the officials would not have had the opportunity to do anything like that. I doubt this kid even scored a point in the game as he showed no athleticism or ability in the game of basketball. We can send all the messages we like, if they do not have a conscious or a soul we are fighting an uphill battle.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

No, that's bull#$%@. No player and no actions can *cause* a player to step in and clothesline a player driving with the ball. Regardless of what the grandma says, this kid plays like a thug.

Maybe we should ask Ndamukong Suh's mother.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I wonder how the officials are feeling now that the video went viral.

In the old Soviet Union they would have been banished to Siberia

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I wonder how the officials are feeling now that the video went viral.

To me, this is the story. There are plenty of flagrant fouls everywhere everyday and I'm guessing they are dealt with accordingly.

I'm really puzzled by a varsity crew that passes the eye test, looks like a veteran crew, good mechanics from what is shown, failed to not only make the proper calls but seemed almost blase and aloof without the least bit of concern or any visible reaction to #5 foul in particular. Not one official at least 'closed down' on #5. I'm truly miffed and would love to know what they were thinking.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by BLydic

I'm sorry, but if they are in chronological order and after I saw #1, #3 becomes flagrant and #34 is gone.

Oblivious? After #5, the one everyone agrees is the only flagrant foul, the C comes in for a chat with #34. Looked like a pleasant conversation with possibly a little pat on the fanny.

#34 moved to the side (If I remember the play) and hits the arm and probably some contact on the body. It was not savage or violent. I think one thing is missing in this discussion. #34 is a big boy and when he makes contact it is going have more mass behind it. Would you call a flagrant foul if this same foul was committed by a point guard on #34?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

#34 moved to the side (If I remember the play) and hits the arm and probably some contact on the body. It was not savage or violent. I think one thing is missing in this discussion. #34 is a big boy and when he makes contact it is going have more mass behind it. Would you call a flagrant foul if this same foul was committed by a point guard on #34?

Why does that matter? Sure, when B1 is significantly bigger than A1, his contact is going to have more affect; but he's still responsible for it.

That said, #1 is, at most, borderline intentional. If that's his first foul, I've probably got a common foul. #3 is easily an intentional. #5, he's done.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by rwest

#34 moved to the side (If I remember the play) and hits the arm and probably some contact on the body. It was not savage or violent. I think one thing is missing in this discussion. #34 is a big boy and when he makes contact it is going have more mass behind it. Would you call a flagrant foul if this same foul was committed by a point guard on #34?

I'm sorry but what?

I think what most of us are saying is that when it's clear that somebody is more concerned with using their body as a weapon on a basketball cout than they are on actually playing basketball then we would do our best to control the game as an official and use the rules at our disposal to remove the player from the contest. Regardless of their size or position.

And when it's clear, as in this video, that this kid's fouls are putting opponents in way of physical risks beyond that of what typically occurs in an organized basketball game a compotent official does their best to get rid of them. Again regardless of their size or position.

The fact that he is a "big boy" and chooses to illegally and dangerously throw his weight around is on him.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Why does that matter? Sure, when B1 is significantly bigger than A1, his contact is going to have more affect; but he's still responsible for it.

+1

The rule concerning fouls refers to advantage/disadvantage and the use of excessive or flagrant force. A bigger player putting a smaller player at a disadvantage via contact is still a foul.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Why does that matter? Sure, when B1 is significantly bigger than A1, his contact is going to have more affect; but he's still responsible for it.

That said, #1 is, at most, borderline intentional. If that's his first foul, I've probably got a common foul. #3 is easily an intentional. #5, he's done.

I never said he wasn't responsible for it. You are reading into my comments more than I intended. But size does play a factor. Answer me this, if the little point guard did the same thing to #34, are you going to call an intentional or flagrant foul on the guard?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by mbyron

+1

The rule concerning fouls refers to advantage/disadvantage and the use of excessive or flagrant force. A bigger player putting a smaller player at a disadvantage via contact is still a foul.

Guys, read what I said. I never said it wasn't a foul. Just not flagrant. So are you going to call a flagrant foul on this? Would you call a flagrant foul on the point guard for making a similar move on #34?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by rwest

Guys, read what I said. I never said it wasn't a foul. Just not flagrant. So are you going to call a flagrant foul on this? Would you call a flagrant foul on the point guard for making a similar move on #34?

The judgment of flagrant/not flagrant is entirely based on the outcome of the play. It is "easier" for a big than for a little guard to commit a flagrant foul. :shrug:

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

I never said he wasn't responsible for it. You are reading into my comments more than I intended. But size does play a factor. Answer me this, if the little point guard did the same thing to #34, are you going to call an intentional or flagrant foul on the guard?

Let me rephrase, the effect of the contact has some bearing on it. If a 90 lb pg tried those things on #34, there wouldn't have been as much effect (except for the flagrant #5 when the shooter was airborne).

If a 90 lb point guard was throwing his body around with such reckless disregard for his opponents, it might take me longer to notice; but yes, I'd be inclined to toss him.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

I'm sorry but what?

I think what most of us are saying is that when it's clear that somebody is more concerned with using their body as a weapon on a basketball cout than they are on actually playing basketball then we would do our best to control the game as an official and use the rules at our disposal to remove the player from the contest. Regardless of their size or position.

And when it's clear, as in this video, that this kid's fouls are putting opponents in way of physical risks beyond that of what typically occurs in an organized basketball game a compotent official does their best to get rid of them. Again regardless of their size or position.

The fact that he is a "big boy" and chooses to illegally and dangerously throw his weight around is on him.

I didn't see play number 1 the same way you did. It looked to me like he moved to try and block the shot. #5 was definitely flagrant. # 1 didn't seem to me that he was "dangerously throwing" his weight around like number 5. or foul number 3.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

I'm sorry but what?

I think what most of us are saying is that when it's clear that somebody is more concerned with using their body as a weapon on a basketball cout than they are on actually playing basketball then we would do our best to control the game as an official and use the rules at our disposal to remove the player from the contest. Regardless of their size or position.

I do not think most of us are saying anything. I think there is a lot of disagreement on what is and what is not flagrant and on play one I have not seen most advocating for that being a flagrant foul.

Originally Posted by VaTerp

And when it's clear, as in this video, that this kid's fouls are putting opponents in way of physical risks beyond that of what typically occurs in an organized basketball game a compotent official does their best to get rid of them. Again regardless of their size or position.

The fact that he is a "big boy" and chooses to illegally and dangerously throw his weight around is on him.

I think if we did not see a compilation of plays and just one play at different times, I honestly believe there would be a very different reaction. I think we are overstepping what most of us would do and considering I have very rarely ever seen an flagrant foul, let alone called one personally for contact, I doubt many here would go right to that place easily.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

Guys, read what I said. I never said it wasn't a foul. Just not flagrant. So are you going to call a flagrant foul on this? Would you call a flagrant foul on the point guard for making a similar move on #34?

Which foul are you talking about? #1 or #5?