question on rule

[jentzd]

This might be the perfect forum for a rule clarification I am seeking.

I am playing just a 1on1 asphalt type pickup game of basketball, but I would like to practice the rule properly in compliance with well known standards.

The question is regarding to defending the low post. Player O has the ball inside the key, his back to the defender Player D and the basket. O is dribbling while inching closer to the basket. D puts his forearm on O's back.

Now, the question is- the next time O inches forward, is player D allowed to apply equal pressure so that he can maintain his defensive position? Or must D allow player O to move to that extra inch.

The NBA rules say 1 forearm and /or arm with bent elbow is allowed to touch defender when inside the lower defensive block in order to maintain defensive position, as long as it does not impair speed and balance of the player with the ball... am I interpretting correctly?

Thanks in advance!
-David Jentz

[ChuckElias]

In the NBA, as you say, the forearm is legal as long it's not used to force the dribbler away from his path. In high school and men's NCAA, the forearm is technically a foul, although many officials will try to warn the defender to remove his arm ("Hands off!!") before actually calling a foul.

In 1-on-1 driveway basketball, I'd say it's perfectly legal

Most driveways have their own "ground rules" anyway. My favorite ground rule was at a friend's house and his mom had lovely flowers lining one side of the driveway. If the ball hit the flowerbed, the ground rule was everybody run home! We would sprint and go through all kinds of contortions to keep the ball from bouncing into the flowers. Good times.

[jentzd]

Well, like I said before, I really want to avoid using 'ground rules' or 'house rules' and practice the right way.

How is the dribbling path to be interpretted in this case? Is it allowed to go through the defenders forearm? Through the defender? By extending this logic, what is there to prevent the player with his ball setting the end of his dribbling path right under the basket, and keep inching his way backwards until he gets there?

The specific stuff i am referring to here is found at: http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_12...av=ArticleList
Section B, part1, Exceptions 1-3.

What constitutes defensive position? The wording itself is vague. How should the forearm legally be used to preserve defensive position?

Thanks Again,
-David Jentz

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by jentzd
Well, like I said before, I really want to avoid using 'ground rules' or 'house rules' and practice the right way.

Well, let me say that most people, probably 99%, do not play by NBA rules when they play pick up games. normally, HS or college rules are the norm. That's also why you're not getting many responses to your questions.

How is the dribbling path to be interpretted in this case? Is it allowed to go through the defenders forearm? Through the defender? By extending this logic, what is there to prevent the player with his ball setting the end of his dribbling path right under the basket, and keep inching his way backwards until he gets there?

All the defender has to is hold his position. If you back in and displace him, you've fouled.

[jentzd]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Well, let me say that most people, probably 99%, do not play by NBA rules when they play pick up games. normally, HS or college rules are the norm. That's also why you're not getting many responses to your questions.

This is true. For example, I've come to find out that 3 seconds in the key is pretty much completely meaningless in a 1on1 game. I guess avoiding 'house rules' completly is not possible.

But I do beleive there is some type of consensus on how post play works. Thats what I am trying to get at. I am trying to get into extremely specific details on how post play works; what is legal, and what is not.

I was trained as a center through high school ball, trained that post play is very physical. I was taught that if you are defending the post and someone uses your body to try and push through you -simply that you dont have to let them. I am willing to admit that my training may be wrong if it is specifically clear how.

I am playing someone who played small forward, not necesserily trained the same way as me. This is why we need a precise rules clarification (which doesnt seem to be found in ANY rulebook...NBA or NCAA or High School, at least that i can find - which is why i am on this forum in the first place). Perhaps the true irony is this small forward is now much bigger than me.

All the defender has to is hold his position. If you back in and displace him, you've fouled. [/B]

Again, I am trying to determine is specific detail exactly what is legal. What exactly does holding ones' position mean? The literal wording is vague...and in terms of displacing the defender? Displacing his arm? His foot? A single hair on his head? What is what?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by jentzd

This is true. For example, I've come to find out that 3 seconds in the key is pretty much completely meaningless in a 1on1 game. I guess avoiding 'house rules' completly is not possible.

But I do beleive there is some type of consensus on how post play works. Thats what I am trying to get at. I am trying to get into extremely specific details on how post play works; what is legal, and what is not.

I was trained as a center through high school ball, trained that post play is very physical. I was taught that if you are defending the post and someone uses your body to try and push through you -simply that you dont have to let them. I am willing to admit that my training may be wrong if it is specifically clear how.

I am playing someone who played small forward, not necesserily trained the same way as me. This is why we need a precise rules clarification (which doesnt seem to be found in ANY rulebook...NBA or NCAA or High School, at least that i can find - which is why i am on this forum in the first place). Perhaps the true irony is this small forward is now much bigger than me.

Again, I am trying to determine is specific detail exactly what is legal. What exactly does holding ones' position mean? The literal wording is vague...and in terms of displacing the defender? Displacing his arm? His foot? A single hair on his head? What is what? [/B]

These are very good questions and go mostly unanswered in the rule books & case books for college & HS, except for ncaa womens and they do attempt to define what is & isn't allowed in the low post (I'm not a womans official, maybe someone can fill in the details). Now, what I look for in the low post is pretty much what you've described: if the players are evenly matched I'll let them bang bodies within reason. What I look for with respect to displacement is one player throwing another off balance by pushing or holding such that the offender gains an advantage on either going to the basket, receiving a pass or getting to an open spot to receive a pass. On the rebound I'll look for a push that displaces another player and puts the pushing player in an open position to get the rebound (this is a no brainer), or I'll whislte a habitual rebound pusher. Offensive "hooking" of a defender when spinning & going to the basket will draw a whistle. Pushing a defender and stepping back to recieve a pass gets a whistle. A defender that keeps 2 hands or an elbow on the post player with the ball will draw a whistle, but I'll try & talk them out of this first. If the post is off ball I'll tend to warn players out of a foul, usually the more experienced guys will hear me & adjust. Any contact that seems unreasonable to me (obvious hold, push, elbow) gets an immediate whistle, if only to keep the game in control.

This is roughly what I'm thinking about, your mileage may vary, others might add more comments.

[jentzd]

>>
A defender that keeps 2 hands or an elbow on the post player with the ball will draw a whistle, but I'll try & talk them out of this first. If the post is off ball I'll tend to warn players out of a foul, usually the more experienced guys will hear me & adjust. Any contact that seems unreasonable to me (obvious hold, push, elbow) gets an immediate whistle, if only to keep the game in control.
<<

I see. Ever since this issue came up I have been playing close attention to games on tv (mostly NBA). The best example I have seen has been either Mark Madsen or Stanislav Medvedenko defending Tim Duncan on the low post. NBA rules are slightly different however...here they allow one elbow and/or hand (read: one elbow and hand legal). Both of the guys are phisically overmatched by the tall/talented Duncan.

But, it seems that they are allowed to apply equal force(as I originally guessed). Each will have a good elbow in Duncan's back, appling at least a little pressure. Madsen was called for a foul(away from the ball) in game 3 when he actually put so much pressure with his forearm he misplaced Duncan by 2 or 3 steps. But in general neither Madsen or Medvedenko was called for a foul unless it was while Duncan was taking a shot.... The announcers referred to Madsen's defense as 'crowding'.

So, since you are right, there probably is nowhere written in a rule book in the specific detail I need...can we look at the emperical evidence and vote that using the forearm with equal(or matching) pressure is ok on the low post? Some officiating body should figure out exactly what they want and write it....

Can we get a vote?

Thanks!
-Dave

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by jentzd
The announcers referred to Madsen's defense as 'crowding'.

The last thing you should do is listen to the announcers. They use "announcerspeak" terms that, in no way, are anywhere close to what the rulebook states.

[AK ref SE]

In the NBA in MHO the superstars can either get away with exerting more pressure whether they are playing offense or defense. Just my 2 cents!

AK ref SE

[AK ref SE]

WHAT is the signal for CROWDING!
hhhmmm reach, crowding, over the back

AK ref SE

[Andy]

Originally posted by jentzd
Some officiating body should figure out exactly what they want and write it....

Basketball officials have been asking for this for a long time!!!!

[Mike Burns]

I was hesitant to post, but it seems appropriate for this thread.

This is an excerpt from the Tower philosophy:
---------------------------------------------
Officials are hired to officiate basketball games because the employer believes that he has basketball intelligence and an understanding of the mood and climate that prevails during a basketball game. The excellent official exercises mature judgment in each play situation in light of the basic philosophy stated. Inquiries indicate that some coaches and officials are too concerned over trivial or unimportant details about play situations during the game. Much time and thought is wasted in digging up hyper-technicalities, which are of little or no significance. In the Editor's travels, he finds that, unfortunately, in some Rules Clinics and officials' meetings and interpretation sessions there are those who would sidetrack the 'bread and butter' discussions too often and get involved with emotional discussions over situations that might happen once in a lifetime. In many instances, these very same officials are looking for a mechanical device and many times it is these very officials who are the ultra-literal minded, strict constructionists who have no faith in their own evaluation or judgment. This minority are those who are categorized as the excessive whistle blowers who are not enhancing our game: in fact, they hurt the game. They are the very ones who want a spelled-out and detailed rule for every tiny detail to replace judgment. The Basketball Rules Committee is looking for the official with a realistic and humanistic approaching officiating the game of basketball. Did he violate the spirit and intended purpose of the rule?"
---------------------------------------------------------
I believe what is being said here is that we would actually be doing a disservice to the game, and to officiating, by having "Some officiating body figure out exactly what they want and write it....". JMHO

[jentzd]

Well, the Tower philosophy may be fine and dandy...but I don't buy it. The purpose of officials is to enforce the rulebook of the game in play. Making a rule more or less vague does not in any way affect the officials' job or autonomy.

Case in point - slamball officials abide by the slamball rules. Though it is a distant relative to the game of basketball, the rules are written by someone, and it is the official's job to enforce them as written(within a reasonable limit of interpretation and personal judgement), just as in basketball. Martial Law= Bad Officiating.

Further - I would condend that the 'Tower Philosophy' post is actually INapproriate for this thread. The point of this thread is to learn to play the low post defense correctly(as mentioned several times). Nowhere is it described in detail in any rulebook what displacement or defensive position mean. In reality, small details in wording of what is legal can make huge differences in the end score. This thread has nothing to do with the officials role, other than asking officials (some of whom are very wise), who would know best on the minutia of rules, what is the best way within a set of rules to play a game. I think the question still stands.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by jentzd
Well, the Tower philosophy may be fine and dandy...but I don't buy it.

Good thing you're not playing HS or NCAA ball then! The Tower Philosophy is how HS and college games are officiated.

The purpose of officials is to enforce the rulebook of the game in play. Making a rule more or less vague does not in any way affect the officials' job or autonomy.

But the rules are written in such a way as to allow (to require) the officials to exercise judgment in whether or not the contact in a given play violates a rule. There is always contact. The official's job is to determine if either player gains an unfair advantage from that contact.

and it is the official's job to enforce them as written(within a reasonable limit of interpretation and personal judgement), just as in basketball. Martial Law= Bad Officiating.

Hey, I just said that!! I guess we agree!

I would condend that the 'Tower Philosophy' post is actually INapproriate for this thread. . . Nowhere is it described in detail in any rulebook what displacement or defensive position mean.

Those two sentences are incompatible. The second sentence is exactly why the Tower Philosophy is appropriate for this thread. The HS and NCAA rulebooks do not give a detailed description of which body parts may touch for how long before a foul is called. The official must decide, on the spot, whether somebody has gained an unfair advantage by making that contact.

In reality, small details in wording of what is legal can make huge differences in the end score.

The problem is, as you've noticed, the wording is very vague at the HS and NCAA (men's) level. Unless you play by NCAA women's rules, you're not going to get the detailed kind of explanation that you're looking for. Even at the NBA level, there is (intentionally) room for official's judgment.

This thread has nothing to do with the officials role, other than asking officials (some of whom are very wise), who would know best on the minutia of rules, what is the best way within a set of rules to play a game. I think the question still stands.

Well, I gave a slightly silly answer at the beginning, so I'll take another crack at it. The best way to play basketball is to keep your hands off your opponent, period. Play defense with your feet. Move your feet fast enough to keep your body between the player and the basket. That's it. That's the best way. If you do that, you will almost NEVER be called for the foul as the defender. I'm absolutely sure that's not what you want to hear, but it's the truth.

[AK ref SE]

jentzd-

You wanting an exact answer will not happen. The reason I say that is simple. We and when I say WE, I mean all officials at all levels of experience (all thousands of us), we are all human, we all read the rule books, we all understand what is written, But we all will call a game slightly different, even the most perfectly written rule will have some degree of being called different. Advantage/Disadvanage is the best way to answer your question. In the post if one of the players is being disadvantage a foul should be called.

AK ref SE