Slide = Not travelling

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

I have seen a player go into a dive for a ball and resulted in a roll, which was caused by the dive ... the momentum saw the player roll once and stop.

I quoted directly from the case book. It says once you stop sliding, you cannot roll. Momentum is not mentioned. Therefore, the play you describe is traveling.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Could a slide and a roll both be part of momentum? I would say yes. And no violation. Am I wrong? I know its a tough call, but believe I have seen it before.

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

I have seen a player go into a dive for a ball and resulted in a roll, which was caused by the dive ... the momentum saw the player roll once and stop.

Slide/Roll as part of momentum of the dive for a loose ball is legal. There is nothing in the rule or case that says it is illegal so it must be legal. Once at a stop, a roll/slide is illegal.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While this may be true 95% of the time, it really depends on the level of the game, and the degree of rapport between partners.

The reason I would not do this, is I do not want to get into a big debate and cause a problem between me and my partner(s) over one judgment call. Now discussing this after the game or even halftime under the right circumstances I would have no problem doing. But I would not want to debate this and look like I am trying to influence his call. Coaches will take any little body language or conversation the wrong way. I have had coaches that even saw both officials signal a foul (not like a blarge) and assume that the other partner had something different. It is not all about the rapport you have or do not have, it is just do you want every call to be up for debate and a coach wanting you to change or give information. At least it is more acceptable on an out of bounds play, but we cannot have every travel or double dribble up for debate or we would never get through a game. Even guys I know very well can get upset when you question their judgment on simple traveling plays.

Peace

[Johnny Ringo]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Slide/Roll as part of momentum of the dive for a loose ball is legal. There is nothing in the rule or case that says it is illegal so it must be legal. Once at a stop, a roll/slide is illegal.

Can't find anything in NFHS regarding roll being part of the momentum following a dive with control during the dive.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Can't find anything in NFHS regarding roll being part of the momentum following a dive with control during the dive.

Any movement by the player's body that occurs due to his momentum is legal. Movement due to momentum ends when all movement stops. Therefore, a player can dive for a ball and his momentum, after gaining control of the ball, can cause his body to slide and/or roll before he comes to a complete and discernible stop (Oops! The weather has been so nice that Junior and I were starting to get in to baseball umpiring mode today, LOL!).

MTD, Sr.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by bainsey

FWIW, I had something similar today.

Loose ball, bodies flying to the ground. V-1 is on his back, has the ball, then goes to his knees. My partner calls the travel.

That's how he saw it. Meanwhile, I'm not entirely sure V-1 had control the ball, so I wouldn't have had a travel. I asked about it at halftime, and he told me what he saw. We even discussed the play with another batch of officials after the game, within our locker room confines.

Some of the finer veterans here could answer this better, but I'd guess it would be a rare occassion where you'd question that one on the floor.

If V1 had control of ball on his back and sat up, on his butt, it isn't a violation. When he gets on his knees it is a violation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by refiator

You have to bring this up to him/her at some point. This is a non-violation that is called a violation by officials who need to know what the rule says.
Let them know that momentum cannot be called a travel. If they disagree, they will pay the price at some point.

Absolutely not the proper path to take for a young official. Criticizing the calls of his older partners will not help him advance and could definitely hinder his progress. Leave the evaluating, instructing, and teaching to those in charge of such tasks in the area or association. Even the assignor could handle it.

All that he should do is focus on his own calls and being correct in what he whistles. Let his partners answer for their own calls.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While this may be true 95% of the time, it really depends on the level of the game, and the degree of rapport between partners.

Yesterday. Catholic middle school junior varsity game. From the lead position, I see, what I believe, is a player attempting a shot from the opposite block, having the ball blocked before the ball leaving his hand, with me calling a held ball. I'm the closer official, but my partner, from the trail position, takes a couple of steps toward me and says quietly, "Did you get a good look at that?". I reply that I did, and we play on.

Next timeout, he comes over to me and we discuss the play. Although I was the closer official, I had the shooter, and his defender, between me and the ball. My partner was farther away, but he got a great look at the ball, and he saw it barely leave the shooter's hand, thus, just a blocked ball, not a held ball. We talked about how we could have fixed it, if we wanted to, and moved on.

I've worked dozens of games, both high school, and Catholic middle school, with this partner. He's a state high school tournament official. I value his opinion, and I know that he wasn't trying to show me up, or take over the game, he just wanted to make this a learning experience for both of us. I've got no problem with what he did.

So you had an inadvertent whistle after a try was released and there was no team control. Now let's see...what is the proper way to resume the game? POI part 3--> AP arrow. Or you could stick with your erroneous held ball call, which would result in using the AP arrow as well.
So it seems that once you incorrectly blew the whistle in this situation, you were stuck with the AP arrow.

Originally Posted by refiator

You have to bring this up to him/her at some point. This is a non-violation that is called a violation by officials who need to know what the rule says.
Let them know that momentum cannot be called a travel. If they disagree, they will pay the price at some point.

The dude is making a middle-school call in a middle-school game. They deserve each other. I can't think of many screw-ups in a middle school school game that would cause an official to "pay the price". If the dude was trying to move up he would have asked his partner after the game if he had anything.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Absolutely not the proper path to take for a young official. Criticizing the calls of his older partners will not help him advance and could definitely hinder his progress. Leave the evaluating, instructing, and teaching to those in charge of such tasks in the area or association. Even the assignor could handle it.

All that he should do is focus on his own calls and being correct in what he whistles. Let his partners answer for their own calls.

Agree.

[Welpe]

Well at least this post is only 4 years old and not 10.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Well at least this post is only 4 years old and not 10.

I thought that was bad too.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Can't find anything in NFHS regarding roll being part of the momentum following a dive with control during the dive.

See this case (from an older book so the number may have shifted a bit):

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating?

RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

The part I've highlighted in red tells me that rolling over is OK before A1 stops sliding.

The part I have highlighed in green also suggest that since I've never seen a player dive on their back....only dive on their stomach and roll over.