Did I drop kick one?

[fullor30]

Girls varsity tonight. A1 is on floor( I can't remember how she got there, loose ball and she recovered probably) holding ball while on her back defenders are reaching down trying to grab ball. A1 swings arms from side to side slightly rolling from side to side(let's call it one cheek up if you will) Shoulders turning almost perpendicular to floor to give you a visual.

I call travel. Coach disagrees, I tell him it's a travel by rule he tells me no it isn't.

'A player while on his/her back may pass shoot dribble or call a timeout. He/she may not roll over' per casebook4-44-5b is all I could find. is the act of rolling travelling? Is rolling over just that, rolling over? I couldn't find anything else to support my case, so did I kick it? I felt the girl was gaining an advantage from rocking from side to side.

Clearly, it may be a 'I have to see it' moment. Is the fact she was rolling enough to justify my call?

Bring it on, I promised to email coach ruling and I may have to choose fried, poached or scrambled egg on my face.

I will say, I've never had my judgement questioned before in this situation on many levels of ball.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Girls varsity tonight. A1 is on floor( I can't remember how she got there, loose ball and she recovered probably) holding ball while on her back defenders are reaching down trying to grab ball. A1 swings arms from side to side slightly rolling from side to side(let's call it one cheek up if you will) Shoulders turning almost perpendicular to floor to give you a visual.

I call travel. Coach disagrees, I tell him it's a travel by rule he tells me no it isn't.

'A player while on his/her back may pass shoot dribble or call a timeout. He/she may not roll over' per casebook4-44-5b is all I could find. is the act of rolling travelling? Is rolling over just that, rolling over? I couldn't find anything else to support my case, so did I kick it? I felt the girl was gaining an advantage from rocking from side to side.

Clearly, it may be a 'I have to see it' moment. Is the fact she was rolling enough to justify my call?

Bring it on, I promised to email coach ruling and I may have to choose fried, poached or scrambled egg on my face.

I will say, I've never had my judgement questioned before in this situation on many levels of ball.

You NAILED IT!!! TRAVELING!!! Your description of raising one cheek and then the other sealed the deal. I would have him take you out for a nice Italian dinner.

MTD, Sr.

[JugglingReferee]

From what I read, the player is laying on the court on her back, fully horizontal.

For the shoulders to be almost perpendicular to the floor sounds like considerable movement. Travel.

[Nevadaref]

In my opinion the coach is correct. We have had a couple of previous threads on this. The fact is that the NFHS has never clearly defined "roll over" so it is a gray area.

For me, I won't penalize just because there is considerable movement or the player gains an advantage, the player must actually violate a rule. Players do all sorts of things during a game which entail considerable movement or in an attempt to gain an advantage and that's what players should do. They are trying to get the upper hand and win the game. What we must decide is if a player is gaining an illegal or unfair advantage. So what is unfair about turning to the side when holding the ball while on the floor? That seems like a smart play and protecting the ball.

My definition of "roll over" means to turn more than 180 degrees, so a player on his/her back would have to flip to his/her front before I will deem it a traveling violation. Turning to one side or even rocking from side to side is not rolling over.

Just focus on the definition of the word "over."

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In my opinion the coach is correct. We have had a couple of previous threads on this. The fact is that the NFHS has never clearly defined "roll over" so it is a gray area.

For me, I won't penalize just because there is considerable movement or the player gains an advantage, the player must actually violate a rule. Players do all sorts of things during a game which entail considerable movement or in an attempt to gain an advantage and that's what players should do. They are trying to get the upper hand and win the game. What we must decide is if a player is gaining an illegal or unfair advantage. So what is unfair about turning to the side when holding the ball while on the floor? That seems like a smart play and protecting the ball.

My definition of "roll over" means to turn more than 180 degrees, so a player on his/her back would have to flip to his/her front before I will deem it a traveling violation. Turning to one side or even rocking from side to side is not rolling over.

Just focus on the definition of the word "over."

Afraid of that, If I can't enforce it by definiton, I think I'm stuck, I've always been premature in calling a travel here, anticipating the rolling over. Over is the key word.

Lord, I hate it when a coach maybe right.

Addendum: She was rolling from side to side, so one could say she was rolling over to the other side. As you say it is a gray area.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

We have had a couple of previous threads on this.

Yes we have!

I would be curious as to what definition most referee's actually use to call their travel in this type of circumstance - the rolling, as described in the OP, or the rolling as defined by Nevada. (Take a poll?)

[bob jenkins]

I'm in general agreement with Nevada here (but I don't know if (a) 180* is the criterion, or (b) if the player violated that).

[BballRookie]

For whatever reason, this reminds me of the points of emphasis this season. I forgot the exact wording, but it said something about the game of basketball never being meant to be played on te floor. The " roll on floor travel or not" seems like a classic example of this grey area. Im not saying a scrum is always going to have a travel, but they can come in the same situations.

I hope that makes some sense. Situations like this make bball te hardest sport to offiiciate.

Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors. This is being written from a phone with a 12 hour old baby in the same hospital room. Our first.

[BillyMac]

A player may slide on the floor while trying to secure a loose ball until that player’s momentum stops. At that point that player cannot attempt to get up or rollover. A player securing a ball while on the floor cannot attempt to stand up unless that player starts a dribble. A player in this situation may also pass, shoot, or request a timeout. If the player is flat on his or her back, that player may sit up without violating.

[BillyMac]

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

Did she pass, shoot, start a dribble, request a timeout, or sit up? All those are legal. Anything else, like attempting to get up, putting the ball on the floor, rising, and picking up the ball, or rolling over, are illegal.

Now, how about partially rolling over? Let me get out my protractor.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BballRookie

This is being written from a phone with a 12 hour old baby in the same hospital room. Our first.

Try to get some sleep, because for the next several months, you won't be getting any.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Your description of raising one cheek and then the other sealed the deal.

It's the "old lifting the pivot cheek call".

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It's the "old lifting the pivot cheek call".

Thank you. It appears that Billy and I are the only ones that picked up on the most important piece of information in the OP.

MTD, Sr.

[refiator]

I think you are splitting hairs. I have nothing based on your description.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by refiator

I have nothing based on your description.

And I've got a travel.

(Man. I hate it when I agree with Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. It never turns out well.)