Illegal Substitute?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When the table does it's job, and tells us about the "problem" right away, it makes the rule very easy to administer. It's when we are not informed in a timely manner. That's when the fun begins.

What scorer is not going to tell you #15 is not in the book when you stand there and report it?

In all the times I've had this happen, the scorer has never told me after the player was substituted for.

I guess I've never had any fun.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

What scorer is not going to tell you #15 is not in the book when you stand there and report it?

In all the times I've had this happen, the scorer has never told me after the player was substituted for.

I guess I've never had any fun.

Common sense rules the day, again.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Common sense rules the day, again.

Careful, the day ain't over.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

What scorer is not going to tell you #15 is not in the book when you stand there and report it?

The scorer in Toren's original post in this thread:

4th quarter girls varsity game last night. Player #15 commits a foul that my partner has a whistle on. He goes and reports the foul and then the coach asks for a timeout. My partner grants the full timeout. All players go to their respective benches. The score table calls my partner over and informs him that player #15 is not in the book.

That's when all the fun began.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The scorer in Toren's original post in this thread:

4th quarter girls varsity game last night. Player #15 commits a foul that my partner has a whistle on. He goes and reports the foul and then the coach asks for a timeout. My partner grants the full timeout. All players go to their respective benches. The score table calls my partner over and informs him that player #15 is not in the book.

That's when all the fun began.

At the very least, you'll get told when #15 commits a foul or scores a point; at which point I'm having them add him to the book and calling the T.

If the R lines through the empty spaces in the book, they won't be able to add anything without your knowledge. Players are not, as far as I know, bench personnel during a timeout.

If it happens and the player is in and out before you're told about the issue, and the scorer does not add them to the book, I'm not going to worry about it. Easy call, no T unless they come in again.

I just don't understand why this is generating so much distress.

The only time it's really a problem is if the scorer adds the name and doesn't tell you. Has anyone actually had that happen more than once in a career?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Players are not, as far as I know, bench personnel during a timeout.

Correct. The five players before the time out, sans substitutions, are still the five players during the timeout. They are bench personnel during intermissions, and, of course, when they are not one of the five players participating in the game.

The original post in this thread complicated matters by having a substitution made before the discovery of the need for an added name in the scorebook. That's when the fun began.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Correct. The five players before the time out, sans substitutions, are still the five players during the timeout. They are bench personnel during intermissions, and, of course, when they are not one of the five players participating in the game.

The original post in this thread complicated matters by having a substitution made before the discovery of the need for an added name in the scorebook. that's when the fun began.

How? It's simple, if you have to add the name, do it and call the T.

When do you have to add it? When the player is still playing, when the player scored, or when the player committed a foul.

If you don't, then just smile and move on.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

When do you have to add it? When the player is still playing, when the player scored, or when the player committed a foul.

How about a missed free throw? Scorekeepers are required to list those.

How I wish that the rule, and penalty, would read that way. How I wish that the casebook never included the statement: No penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game.

Still having fun?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How about a missed free throw? Scorekeepers are required to list those.

How I wish that the rule, and penalty, would read that way. How I wish that the casebook never included the statement: No penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game.

Still having fun?

Nope, you're overcomplicating a simple issue. If the case play involved a player who had fouled or scored, I'd say ignore it then, too. But it doesn't, so I don't think it applies to a situation where a player scores or fouls. If they're required to note missed free throws (I just don't know), then that's good enough, too.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

When do you have to add it? When the player is still playing, when the player scored, or when the player committed a foul.

I would love to see a citation for, "When the player scored, or when the player committed a foul", but I'm probably not going to get it, nor will I disagree with those who believe that this is the correct interpretation. I will continue to question it, to get additional citations, or an interpretation from the NFHS, or from an esteemed interpreter, IAABO (for me), or otherwise, but I'm not going to disagree. This is a case where the citation is common sense, but it would be nice to get something in writing.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I would love to see a citation for, "When the player scored, or when the player committed a foul",...

That's not included because it's assumed the scorer is competent since the referee has already approved him/her and will notify the officials when it's found the player isn't listed.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

At the very least, you'll get told when #15 commits a foul or scores a point; at which point I'm having them add him to the book and calling the T.

When the scorekeeper does his job, this is a pretty straightforward technical foul.

The only technical foul that I ever had to charge for this infraction, in a high school varsity game, happened in such a simple manner. We've got A12 on the free throw line for two shots. He makes the first shot. Scorekeeper sounds the horn, and calls me over to the table. "A12 is not in the book. Got the name, but the number is wrong". I asked to see the list that the home scorekeeper used to copy the names, and numbers, into the scorebook. A12's correct uniform number was not on the submitted list. We add A12's correct number into the scorebook. We clear the lane and allow A12 his second free throw. We go down to the other end and allow Team B to shoot two free throws for the technical foul, and we give Team B the ball at the division line, opposite the table, for a throwin.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If it happens and the player is in and out before you're told about the issue, and the scorer does not add them to the book, I'm not going to worry about it. Easy call, no T unless they come in again.

I was of that opinion earlier in the thread, and I had a citation to prove it (No penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game), but a few esteemed members have me questioning how to handle this correctly.

That's why this thread is so much fun.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The only time it's really a problem is if the scorer adds the name and doesn't tell you. Has anyone actually had that happen more than once in a career?

Still easy to handle. These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize.