Illegal Substitute?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1:
a. Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a.
b. Add a name to the team member list.
c. Require the scorer to change a team member's or player's number in the scorebook.
d. Require a player to change to the number in the scorebook.
e. Have identical numbers on team members and/or players.
PENALTY: (Art. 2) One foul only per team regardless of the number of infractions. (Art. 2a) Penalized if discovered before ball becomes live to start game. (Arts. 2b, c, d) Penalized when they occur. (Art. 2e) Penalized when discovered.

Don't forget the casebook citation: No penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game.

I'm still waiting to see a citation that differentiates between a player, not in the scorebook, who scores, or commits a foul, and a player who, while not in the book, doesn't score, or doesn't foul. In both cases the need to add the name to the scorebook is discovered after the player has been replaced by a substitute and is now bench personnel.

Cue the Jeopardy song. Where are Ken Jennings, and Mary Struckoff, when you need them?

By the way, I don't have the answer to this situation, I'm just trying to get a better handle on it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Don't forget the casebook citation:

No penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game.

Yet, that citation doesn't involve the recording of an infraction that is required to be recorded in the scorebook.

What I want to know is why the scorekeeper didn't speak up at the moment the foul was reported. Where did they record the foul?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yet, that citation doesn't involve the recording of an infraction that is required to be recorded in the scorebook.

Agree 100%. I get it. That citation works for that specific situation. Now please show me a citation where a player, not in the scorebook, scores, or commits a foul, and then there is a need to add the name to the scorebook, and this need is discovered after the player has been replaced by a substitute, meaning said player is now bench personnel.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree 100%. I get it. That citation works for that specific situation. Now please show me a citation where a player, not in the scorebook, scores, or commits a foul, and then there is a need to add the name to the scorebook, and this need is discovered after the player has been replaced by a substitute, meaning said player is now bench personnel.

There is none, the rules that have been posted are clear.

Heck the coach could ask halfway through the game that a name be added to the list and that player wont step on the court for a second on the court or even be out of the country, still a T.(10.1.2)

The status of the player, either as bench personnel or as a player, has no bearing when the name is added to the book. Its just that the name is added to the book and is caught before a live ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

There is none, the rules that have been posted are clear.

Clear? A few Forum members have indicated that the rule does seem to present a "gray" area. I am not adamant that I am correct. I also think that the rule is slightly ambiguous.

I would love to see a "clear" rule, or casebook play, where the term "forced" is used to describe the writing of a name in the scorebook.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Clear? A few Forum members have indicated that the rule does seem to present a "gray" area. I am not adamant that I am correct. I also think that the rule is slightly ambiguous.

I would love to see a "clear" rule, or casebook play, where the term "forced" is used to describe the writing of a name in the scorebook.

If the book had every effin situation in it needed to be clear to you (and some others) it would be 1000 pages long. Your continuous need to ask over and over and over again isn't magically going to get you the answer you want.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The answer you want.

Oh, I already got the answer that I want. A long time ago. The rule is poorly worded. Maybe the rule, by itself, is worded correctly, it's just that the casebook play needs some tinkering.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Clear? A few Forum members have indicated that the rule does seem to present a "gray" area. I am not adamant that I am correct. I also think that the rule is slightly ambiguous.

I would love to see a "clear" rule, or casebook play, where the term "forced" is used to describe the writing of a name in the scorebook.

The T is for adding a name or changing a number. The fact that I know I called a PC foul on #15 at the 7:00 mark is all I need to direct the scorer to add #15 to the book some point later in the game. At that point it becomes a T.

Are you going to ignore that fact that you called a foul on #15? So, if you call a foul on #20 and the scorer records it as #30 are you saying you are not at some point later in the game going to have the scorer correct that mistake?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Are you going to ignore that fact that you called a foul on #15?

Great question. No, I don't think that the foul should be ignored. I would just like to see some changes in the way this rule is worded.

If #15 played, without fouling, and I know 100% for sure that she played, can I tell the scorekeeper to add her name to the book and charge a team technical foul?

What if #15 played, but didn't score any points, or commit any fouls, but missed the front end of a one and one? Can I tell the scorekeeper to add her name to the book and charge a team technical foul?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Heck the coach could ask halfway through the game that a name be added to the list and that player won't step on the court for a second on the court, or even be out of the country, still a T.

Point? Never in dispute. A smart coach would take the "T" when the other team has the ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

The status of the player, either as bench personnel, or as a player, has no bearing when the name is added to the book.

It doesn't? RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. (If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A.

I wish the rules stated that if the officials, maybe even the table "officials", have definite knowledge" that No. 25 participated as a player in the game, that the name must then be written in the scorebook upon discovery, and that a team technical foul will be charged. But the rules just don't say that. They don't. I wish that they did, but they don't.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It doesn't: RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. (If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A.

I wish the rules stated that if the officials, maybe even the table "officials", have definite knowledge" that No. 25 participated as a player in the game, that the name must then be written in the scorebook upon discovery, and that a team technical foul will be charged. But the rules just don't say that. They don't. I wish that they did, but they don't.

I think I will send you and tref Hooked on Phonix .

[Toren]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yet, that citation doesn't involve the recording of an infraction that is required to be recorded in the scorebook.

What I want to know is why the scorekeeper didn't speak up at the moment the foul was reported. Where did they record the foul?

To answer your question, I don't think my partner gave her time, he reported the foul and then immediately signaled the timeout. The players started going to their benches and then the scorekeeper called him over. By the time he made it to the score table all the players were on their benches.

Incidentally, when my partner came to me to tell me we had a Technical, I asked him did the score table tell him before or after the timeout and he said before the timeout. But that wasn't true, otherwise the string of events would have been different.

As a crew we screwed it up. But ultimately, I think we got the correct ruling.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Only, if, and when, #15 is, or becomes, one of the five players participating in the game. If #15 is on the bench at the time of discovery, no name will be added to the book. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game.

If #15 fouls, #15 is NOT on the bench.

If #15 fouls, then #15 is in the game and is a player.

"Blue, 15, push, 2 shots."
"#15 isn't in the book."
"Technical foul."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

"Blue, 15, push, 2 shots."
"#15 isn't in the book."
"Technical foul."

When the table does it's job, and tells us about the "problem" right away, it makes the rule very easy to administer. It's when we are not informed in a timely manner. That's when the fun begins.