Charge, After Charge, After Charge

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Good defense, poor offense or a combination of both?

Pretty good defense to take this many, but the coach also teaches his players to take charges and to not give up their position.

[Camron Rust]

The offensive player has to be aware of the defenders in the vicinity and the fact that they are going to try to stop the offensive player. They have to be ready to have their path blocked at any time.

The player with the ball is the one with the most choices and control in the game. That is why the rules on legally defending such a player require no time/distance where all other situations do.

[letemplay]

and that my position would elicit several responses to the contrary while I was away from my computer on lunch break. I know partly what I say is NOT supported by rule or by POE the last several years. I'm also not saying I'm going to ignore that and make calls based on how I feel. It is hard for me to define my opinion with a mere keyboard and those responding should not take me as literal as I sounded. I don't believe every crash is the fault of the offense. I wish I could somehow convert my desktop to a on court clinic/diagram to explain what plays I'm describing, but since I can't I'll do the best I can this way: Let's say player A1 has received a pass from top of key in the right side wing/foul line extended area. He stands facing the basket in triple threat position, with the intent to shoot, pass or dribble. A defender B2 comes to guard him and obtains LGP, in his direct path between the spot he's standing in and the basket, some 20' away. Now obviously A1 cannot, for instance, pump fake, and then drive in that direct path to the basket because of B2's position. Suppose he uses that pump fake, or a shoulder fake to his right, then begins a quick take off move to his left on a path that would take him in a fairly similar line to the foul line. He's moving quickly and strongly when B2, reading his direction, now has to change his position to try and get to the spot in front of the offensive player. B2 manages to get along side A1 and quickly throws his foot into his path (the toe tap I refer to) and we have a crash. There's no chance in heck for A1 to change direction, let alone stop, yet he's called for the PC in a lot more plays nowadays then I can remember. I'm aware time and distance are not considered here...maybe I'm saying I think they should be or wish they were. Maybe I'm dating myself, but it doesn't seem that long ago we were telling a coach: "he wasn't there in time". It just seems like it's taking some flow from the game when guys are allowed to throw themselves into an offensive players path, we stop the play, saddle the kid with a foul, go setup for another oob throw, wait on subs, then A does it back to B on the other end and we got no basketball being played. Ok, that's my Friday rant!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by letemplay

... He's moving quickly and strongly when B2, reading his direction, now has to change his position to try and get to the spot in front of the offensive player. B2 manages to get along side A1 and quickly throws his foot into his path (the toe tap I refer to) and we have a crash...

What you describe sounds like a trip. I can't see a crash if all that B2 got in A1's path was a foot.

[letemplay]

He gets his foot in front, but because the dribbler is of course, leaning forward, there is torso contact. Sometimes the offensive player even puts his off arm up as a reaction to the crash and it looks like a forearm hitting the defender. I guess this is a judgment play all the way, like many others during the game's course, but I'd like to think the rules makers allow that the defender get there. I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying? Doesn't the offensive player's established path play a part in determining if lgp has been reached?

[tomegun]

Sounds like a trip to me. And, if you know exactly what happened on the play, as you describe here, I don't think there is anything keeping you from calling it on the defender. I do get the slight feeling that you may want to let this action go to maintain some mythical flow.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by letemplay

He gets his foot in front, but because the dribbler is of course, leaning forward, there is torso contact. Sometimes the offensive player even puts his off arm up as a reaction to the crash and it looks like a forearm hitting the defender. I guess this is a judgment play all the way, like many others during the game's course, but I'd like to think the rules makers allow that the defender get there. I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying? Doesn't the offensive player's established path play a part in determining if lgp has been reached?

But the purpose of LGP,IMO, is that once a defender gets LGP it entitles him to such movement to stay in front of the offensive player. Sounds like you want to punish a defensive player who is quick and/or intuitive enough to adjust to the offensive player's new path.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by letemplay

He gets his foot in front, but because the dribbler is of course, leaning forward, there is torso contact. Sometimes the offensive player even puts his off arm up as a reaction to the crash and it looks like a forearm hitting the defender. I guess this is a judgment play all the way, like many others during the game's course, but I'd like to think the rules makers allow that the defender get there. I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying? Doesn't the offensive player's established path play a part in determining if lgp has been reached?

When you have obtained LGP, you have to maintain it. It does not mean all contact is legal on the part of the defender. But the defense can get in the way legally of the ball handler and not be responsible for the contact. You still have not explained what a "toe tap" is or what you are trying to say we should agree with. The rules are rather clear about this and actually you do not need torso contact to have a foul on the offensive player either.

Peace

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by letemplay

I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying?

Once LGP is established, the defender is permitted to maintain the position if s/he is moving laterally or obliquely. LGP is "lost" if the dribbler gets head and shoulders past the torso of the defender.

[letemplay]

[QUOTE=JRutledge;805422]When you have obtained LGP, you have to maintain it. It does not mean all contact is legal on the part of the defender. But the defense can get in the way legally of the ball handler and not be responsible for the contact. You still have not explained what a "toe tap" is or what you are trying to say we should agree with. The rules are rather clear about this and actually you do not need torso contact to have a foul on the offensive player either.

Peace[/QUOTE

JRut, I've tried to explain what I mean by toe tap as a quick thrust of the defenders foot while trying to get in front of the offensive players path. It seems as though he's only there long enough to tap his toe before contact occurs, yet the offensive player is whistled. That's the best I can do sorry. It just seems the offensive player is put in such a disadvantage here in the close cases/plays I'm seeing. I'm not meaning to totally disagree with everyone, certainly I keep seeing this play on hs and college level being called this way...something about how the game has changed I suppose.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by letemplay

JRut, I've tried to explain what I mean by toe tap as a quick thrust of the defenders foot while trying to get in front of the offensive players path. It seems as though he's only there long enough to tap his toe before contact occurs, yet the offensive player is whistled. That's the best I can do sorry. It just seems the offensive player is put in such a disadvantage here in the close cases/plays I'm seeing. I'm not meaning to totally disagree with everyone, certainly I keep seeing this play on hs and college level being called this way...something about how the game has changed I suppose.

Again a toe tap has nothing to do with the rule and as long at the defender is in LGP at the time of contact, not sure how you can call it any other way unless you do not have the judgment to know when a defender is in LGP.

And if your suggestion is that at those levels they are calling it the way you suggest, I know at the NCAA level they are getting killed for not calling it the way I suggest on tape. And because of the tape that is being shown, I see more PC fouls being called in the last few years.

Peace

[letemplay]

That makes sense then. I'll try looking at them that way.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by letemplay

JRut, I've tried to explain what I mean by toe tap as a quick thrust of the defenders foot while trying to get in front of the offensive players path. It seems as though he's only there long enough to tap his toe before contact occurs, yet the offensive player is whistled. That's the best I can do sorry. It just seems the offensive player is put in such a disadvantage here in the close cases/plays I'm seeing. I'm not meaning to totally disagree with everyone, certainly I keep seeing this play on hs and college level being called this way...something about how the game has changed I suppose.

If the defender has (and maintains) LGP, then he doesn't even need a "toe tap" to draw a charge -- one or both feet can be in the air.

And, if he doesn't have LGP, but the "toe tap" gives him both feet on the floor, facing the offensive player before the offensive player leaves the floor and before contact (even by a millisecond), then the defense has established LGP and the proper call is a charge.

[letemplay]

Like I said, I'll try to look at them that way. I just don't like it when (to me anyway) it looks like such a disadvantage to offense and stops the game. I don't think the game was meant to be played that way...but that's just me. I'll keep an open mind about it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Like I said, I'll try to look at them that way. I just don't like it when (to me anyway) it looks like such a disadvantage to offense and stops the game. I don't think the game was meant to be played that way...but that's just me. I'll keep an open mind about it.

How can an offensive player be put at a disadvantage when they control where they are going?

Peace