Pass hitting player and going through basket

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Apparently if you attempt a 3-point try, miss, and it bounces into the basket off B's head, you get 2 points. 4.41.4C

If you throw a pass to a teammate from behind the arc, miss, and it bounces into the basket off B's head, you get 3 points. 5.2.1C(b)

Weird.

You're missapplying 5.2.1C(b).

Note that it is under a section titled "THREE-POINT TRY"

It is making the point that if A or B tips the shot (just out of the shooters hand), it will still be 3 whether B is in the 3-point area or in the 2-point area (usually feet on the line) but if it touches A in the 2-point area, it becomes a 2.

It never was intended for the situation you pose...where the try or virtual try is ALWAYS over when the ball passes below the level of the ring or ever passes above the ring.

Only 4.41.4C is relevant at that point....a ball that bounces off a player's head/shoulder is a 2 and it is not a try.

[Dave9819]

So if A1 is inbounding and their inbounds pass hits off of A2 or B2 who are standing outside the 3pt. line, would it be a 2pt or 3pt?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by dave9819

so if a1 is inbounding and their inbounds pass hits off of a2 or b2 who are standing outside the 3pt. Line, would it be a 2pt or 3pt?

2

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're misapplying 5.2.1C(b).

Note that it is under a section titled "THREE-POINT TRY"

The heading is editorial and irrelevant, as Situation B makes clear (it concerns a thrown ball that is NOT a try). The governing rule is 5-2-1, which states:
"A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points."

Moreover, the wording of Situation C is distinctive: "A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line."

That's different from Situation A ("A1 attempts a three-point goal.") and is more like Situation B Ruling ("A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the
three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an
actual try for goal.").

It's clear that Situations B and C concern thrown balls that are NOT tries, and my original puzzle remains.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The heading is editorial and irrelevant, as Situation B makes clear (it concerns a thrown ball that is NOT a try). The governing rule is 5-2-1, which states:
"A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points."

Moreover, the wording of Situation C is distinctive: "A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line."

That's different from Situation A ("A1 attempts a three-point goal.") and is more like Situation B Ruling ("A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the
three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an
actual try for goal.").

It's clear that Situations B and C concern thrown balls that are NOT tries, and my original puzzle remains.

Disagree. I think Camron has it right. The actual definition of a try specifically describes shooting as "throwing" which is obviously a poor choice of a word. Even though a pass or try that is "thrown" from behind the arc and goes in counts as 3, officials still have to make judgements regarding was it a pass or a try. For example, if A1 is obviously throwing a long lob pass toward A5 near the basket but is fouled as he releases the throw, are we giving him 3 shots?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Apparently if you attempt a 3-point try, miss, and it bounces into the basket off B's head, you get 2 points. 4.41.4C

If you throw a pass to a teammate from behind the arc, miss, and it bounces into the basket off B's head, you get 3 points. 5.2.1C(b)

Weird.

If the "throw" is either on the way up or above the basket at the time of the touch, and is in the general direction of the basket, then award three points.

If the "throw" is back down below the rim, or is not toward the basket, then award two points.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If the "throw" is either on the way up or above the basket at the time of the touch, and is in the general direction of the basket, then award three points.

If the "throw" is back down below the rim, or is not toward the basket, then award two points.

I would agree with that, Bob. Otherwise, if Team A is on a fastbreak and A1 from just behind the arc whips a cross-cross court chest pass that is deflected and goes in A's basket, some might be inclined to award 3 points.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The heading is editorial and irrelevant, as Situation B makes clear (it concerns a thrown ball that is NOT a try). The governing rule is 5-2-1, which states:
"A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points."

Moreover, the wording of Situation C is distinctive: "A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line."

That's different from Situation A ("A1 attempts a three-point goal.") and is more like Situation B Ruling ("A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the
three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an
actual try for goal.").

It's clear that Situations B and C concern thrown balls that are NOT tries, and my original puzzle remains.

Note the blue text above. That is not from OOB.

Plus, is OOB really behind the 3-point arc? I say no...the 3-point area is ONLY inbounds. Name any other time a player can score 3-points while throwin the ball from OOB?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Note the blue text above. That is not from OOB.

Plus, is OOB really behind the 3-point arc? I say no...the 3-point area is ONLY inbounds. Name any other time a player can score 3-points while throwin the ball from OOB?

I agree -- I didn't know that was (still) an issue. Balls from OOB that are deflected (not intentionally tapped with <= .3 seconds) into the basket are always 2 points.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Disagree. The implied condition for the ruling you're using to make this conclusion is that the thrown ball is inbounds already...not a throw in.

In no possible way could a throwin be a 3-point try so B1 touching it only makes it legal for it to enter the basket...it doesn't make it a 3.

In part (a), I suppose you might get a 3 out of that but not because it was a thrown ball....it was a throwin. It couldn't have been 3 to start with. Only if you judge that A1 was tapping the ball for a 3 would it be 3, not just tipped/touched.

This rule, for a ball thrown from outside the 3-point arc that enters the basket was only intended to remove the necessary judgment of whether it was a try or not when there was a question of whether it was a try or not. A throwin was never in doubt. For that matter, the position of the throwin is neither inside of nor outside of the 3-point arc....It is OOB.

So I should have listened to myself the first time!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Note the blue text above. That is not from OOB.

Plus, is OOB really behind the 3-point arc? I say no...the 3-point area is ONLY inbounds. Name any other time a player can score 3-points while throwin the ball from OOB?

I never said anything about OOB. Where did that come from? The issue concerns shot vs throw (e.g. a pass).

Pass from behind the arc bounces off B's shoulder and goes in: 3 points, even though it was not a try.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Pass from behind the arc bounces off B's shoulder and goes in: 3 points, even though it was not a try.

Is this a question, or a factual statement?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is this a question, or a factual statement?

If you ask me, it's not a factual statement.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I never said anything about OOB. Where did that come from? The issue concerns shot vs throw (e.g. a pass).

The original post was about a throwin.

Originally Posted by mbyron

Pass from behind the arc bounces off B's shoulder and goes in: 3 points, even though it was not a try.

No, it is not. See 4.41.4 SITUATION B. Once it no longer has the chance to enter the basket in flight it can only be a 2.

Remember, they removed the need to decide try/pass so no matter what you thought it was, it comes out the same. That means 4.41.4 SIT B applies whether it was a throw or a try.

The case that you're relying on to rule it a 3 just don't apply to a thrown ball that might have been a try that has fallen short and is not going in. It is ONLY meant to apply a ball that, as thrown, might have been a shot and goes in...and that a tip by a defender at the point of release doesn't change that.

If the defender touches it much closer to the basket, we'd have goaltending....but that can't happen once the shot falls below the rim. So the try (or virtual try) is over. It is just a lose ball that goes in.

Don't take that case so literally and apply it to situations it was never intended to be used for.

[Dave9819]

So, would 2 points be awarded in this scenario:

A1 shoots the ball from behind the 3 point line. Ball has been released by the shooter and time expires as the ball is in the air. Shot falls short of the basket, bounces off of B1 (head, shoulder, arms - doesn't matter) and goes through the basket. 2 points awarded because the try for goal ended once the ball was below the rim? It is still a live ball, correct?

Same scenario, but instead of hitting B1, it bounces off the floor and into the basket. No points since time expired, correct?