NCAA M Flagrant 1

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JS 20

Where in the rulebook does it say the injured player has to come out of the game if he can't attempt the free throws because he was injured on a F1 or F2 foul?

If he was able to remain in the game, he was able to shoot the FTs.

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by camron rust

if he was able to remain in the game, he was able to shoot the fts.

+1!!

[dahoopref]

Rule 8 Sec 2 Art 3 in short states if a player was injured from "either intentional or flagrant" foul, the offended team's coach can select any player from his team.

The key word is "unable." Can a player have an injury that prevents him from shooting but still allows him to play (sprained finger)?

How I read it, as long as the injured player isn't seen by a coach or trainer, the player can stay in the game and have a teammate (picked by his coach) shoot the FTs since he was fouled flagrantly or intentionally.

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If he was able to remain in the game, he was able to shoot the FTs.

I'm not arguing with your logic. But, the book says:

(Men) When an injured player is unable to attempt his free throw try(s),
the coach from the opposing team shall select one of the four remaining
players on the playing court to attempt the free throw try(s). When the
foul is flagrant and the injured player is unable to attempt the free throw
try(s), the injured player’s coach shall select any player or team member
to attempt the free throw try(s).

It doesn't mention anything about the injured player having to be removed from the game.

[BayStateRef]

Correct.

And 8-2.1 provides even more guidance:
Section. 2. Who Attempts
Art. 1. Personal fouls -- The free throw(s) awarded because of a personal foul shall be attempted by the offended player, unless one of the conditions of Article 2 and 3 of this section are met.

[jdw3018]

I don't have the NCAA book in front of me, but determining if a player is unable to attempt the FTs is the same regardless of the type of foul, correct?

If so, can you see a scenario where a common foul by B1 against A1 injures A1 to the extent he cannot attempt the FT, but not to where he has to be removed? And, if it's a sprained or broken finger, what about the next time he's fouled?

I have a hard time finding a situation that would allow a player to remain in the game but make him unable to attempt FTs.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I don't have the NCAA book in front of me, but determining if a player is unable to attempt the FTs is the same regardless of the type of foul, correct?

If so, can you see a scenario where a common foul by B1 against A1 injures A1 to the extent he cannot attempt the FT, but not to where he has to be removed? And, if it's a sprained or broken finger, what about the next time he's fouled?

I have a hard time finding a situation that would allow a player to remain in the game but make him unable to attempt FTs.

There is a distinction for flagrant fouls. If it is a personal foul (with free throws) and the injured player cannot shoot, then the opposing coach gets to pick the shooter from one of the four remaining players. For a flagrant foul, the coach of the team that is fouled can select any player or team member.

A.R. 199 addresses this as well.

A.R. 199.
(Men) A1 is bleeding from a blow to the head and is unable to attempt his free throw(s). Is Rule 3-4-3.f concerning an injured player applicable?
RULING: The intent of Rule 3-4-3.f is to eliminate the situation whereby a poor free-throw shooter faked an injury so that he could be replaced by a higher percentage shooter. Obviously, a bleeding player is not faking an injury. Consequently, Rule 3-4-3.f is not applicable. The bleeding player shall be instructed by the official to leave the game for attention by medical personnel. His coach may exercise the option of substituting for the bleeding player or calling a timeout.
(Rule 3-4-3.f and 8-2-2.a)


(Side note for those who have noted the NFHS did not update its casebook to reflect the new rule on throw-ins: The NCAA editors did not do too well either getting rid of "intentional foul" even though the rule change this year has it called "Flagrant 1." Rule 8.2-3 is at least the third place I have found the phrase "intentional foul" still in the rule book, even though it no longer exists.)

[jdw3018]

I realize the way the replacement is chosen is different, I'm just arguing that if a player is well enough to stay in the game he's well enough to shoot FTs. I wouldn't allow a replacement player to shoot FTs for a player who remains in the game after a common foul, so I wouldn't after a F1 or F2 either.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I realize the way the replacement is chosen is different, I'm just arguing that if a player is well enough to stay in the game he's well enough to shoot FTs. I wouldn't allow a replacement player to shoot FTs for a player who remains in the game after a common foul, so I wouldn't after a F1 or F2 either.

The rule allows it, so I am not sure why you wouldn't allow it. There is a specific distinction for a flagrant foul -- and it is only on the men's side. The women's rule is that the injured player must be removed if she is not going to shoot the free throws.

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

The rule allows it, so I am not sure why you wouldn't allow it. There is a specific distinction for a flagrant foul -- and it is only on the men's side. The women's rule is that the injured player must be removed if she is not going to shoot the free throws.

Agreed. Do what the rule book says and you have something to back you up.

Deviate from the book and your assigner gets the tape and....uh oh.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I realize the way the replacement is chosen is different, I'm just arguing that if a player is well enough to stay in the game he's well enough to shoot FTs. I wouldn't allow a replacement player to shoot FTs for a player who remains in the game after a common foul, so I wouldn't after a F1 or F2 either.

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

The rule allows it, so I am not sure why you wouldn't allow it. There is a specific distinction for a flagrant foul -- and it is only on the men's side. The women's rule is that the injured player must be removed if she is not going to shoot the free throws.

You can beckon the coach on the floor

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

For a flagrant foul, the coach of the team that is fouled can select any player.

Or team member.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JS 20

I'm not arguing with your logic. But, the book says:

(Men) When an injured player is unable to attempt his free throw try(s),
the coach from the opposing team shall select one of the four remaining
players on the playing court to attempt the free throw try(s). When the
foul is flagrant and the injured player is unable to attempt the free throw
try(s), the injured player’s coach shall select any player or team member
to attempt the free throw try(s).

It doesn't mention anything about the injured player having to be removed from the game.

For something to remain, something has to have left. "Remaining" players is different than "other" players.