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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2011, 10:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle View Post
If that is the situation, the R could request a new scorer. Anyone at the table can be replaced if they misapply a rule concerning their duties/responsibilities.
Long answer: No.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2011, 11:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelbRef View Post
Situation:

Last minute, Team A coach, down by 1 point, loudly calls for timeout.
The coach doesn't have any timeouts left.

Ignore it?

What if Team B coach hears it and says "that's a technical".
Still ignore it?
can't ignore...you are providing Team A with an advantage by NOT "calling the rules as written" (which is a NCAA-M POE for the 2nd yr in a row).
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2011, 01:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Did you really comment about this? Seriously?

I do not care if they tell me or not, the coach better know their situation with all their assistant coaches they have on their bench.

Peace
One of the duties/responsibilities of the scorer is to:

NOTIFY THE NEARER OFFICIAL WHEN:
1. The bonus penalty is in effect for the seventh, eighth and ninth
team foul in each half. The bonus display indicates a second free
throw is awarded for all common fouls (other than player-control)
if the first free throw is successful. The proper bonus panel, such
as (H for home and V for visitor) shall be displayed after the
penalty for the sixth team foul has been administered. Another
method is to activate a light or device nearest the basket of the
team which is to receive the bonus.
2. The tenth team foul occurs each half. Thereafter, the bonus
(second free throw) is awarded for a common foul (except playercontrol)
whether or not the first is successful.
3. Any player is charged with his or her fifth foul (personal or tech -
nical), the second technical foul is charged to any team member,
bench personnel, directly to the head coach, or the third technical
foul is charged to the head coach.
4. Either team has been granted its allotted charged time-outs or an excess time-out.
5. The ball is dead or in control of offending players team if:
a. Player has not reported.
b. Player’s number changed.
c. Player is illegally in game.
6. The ball is dead, if there is a score dispute or doubt about an
official’s decision.
7. Any player enters while wearing an illegal number.
8. The ball is dead and the clock is stopped or running, if the coach
requests that a correctable error as in 2-10, or a timing, scoring
or alternating-possession mistake be prevented or rectified.

So the scorer is also supposed to notify the nearest official when the team has no more time outs left.

True, being there is little time left in the game there is not much sense in replacing the official scorer.

Also if the HC or the AC/s are not keeping track of their own TOs, it's on them for requesting excess TOs.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2011, 02:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle View Post
One of the duties/responsibilities of the scorer is to:

So the scorer is also supposed to notify the nearest official when the team has no more time outs left.

True, being there is little time left in the game there is not much sense in replacing the official scorer.

Also if the HC or the AC/s are not keeping track of their own TOs, it's on them for requesting excess TOs.
I am probably more aware of what the rule is than you are. And why I am about to even respond I will never know.

But the point is if they do not tell you this, are we supposed to remove them near the end of the game? What world are you living in? Do we get rid of a scorer after the T is to be given? If they do not tell you, then what are you going to do? We grant timeouts when they are asked for. We do not sit around and make sure they tell us or if you have other concerns with your partner (which is common near the end of any game) officials are not always looking for the timeout count. Honestly I do not care and almost never do. They have coaches that know they called timeout. I joke about them having 10 coaches, but it is not unusual for there to be 5 coaches with many programs I officiate, so when they use timeouts or certainly use timeouts someone already knows. No different as to how they seem to know how many fouls a player has or if they are about to foul out. Most of the time when a player fouls out, the coach somehow already knows. I am not going to go through a process of removing a person because they might have been making sure other things are in order with the book and they happen to not tell me when a team has run out or if they are low.

Peace
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2011, 02:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I am probably more aware of what the rule is than you are. And why I am about to even respond I will never know.

But the point is if they do not tell you this, are we supposed to remove them near the end of the game? What world are you living in? Do we get rid of a scorer after the T is to be given? If they do not tell you, then what are you going to do? We grant timeouts when they are asked for. We do not sit around and make sure they tell us or if you have other concerns with your partner (which is common near the end of any game) officials are not always looking for the timeout count. Honestly I do not care and almost never do. They have coaches that know they called timeout. I joke about them having 10 coaches, but it is not unusual for there to be 5 coaches with many programs I officiate, so when they use timeouts or certainly use timeouts someone already knows. No different as to how they seem to know how many fouls a player has or if they are about to foul out. Most of the time when a player fouls out, the coach somehow already knows. I am not going to go through a process of removing a person because they might have been making sure other things are in order with the book and they happen to not tell me when a team has run out or if they are low.

Peace
You respond because of liking to engage in constructive arguments??

Nowhere did I say automatically replace, I said could replace.

I, did however, retract by saying that being so close to the end of the game, it would not make much sense to ask for a replacement.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2011, 02:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle View Post
You respond because of liking to engage in constructive arguments??

Nowhere did I say automatically replace, I said could replace.

I, did however, retract by saying that being so close to the end of the game, it would not make much sense to ask for a replacement.
I honestly do not know why you responded. We did not need your help or input as to what the duties of the scorer must do.

Considering that many of us work a lot of games over the years, when do you think it is more likely for a team to run out of timeouts? I will give you a guess, it is not usually in the 2nd Quarter. Why would anyone in their right mind request a replacement for what you would want us to "consider?"

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Last edited by JRutledge; Thu Nov 10, 2011 at 02:55pm.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2011, 02:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
What world are you living in?
He's living in a world where the rule explicitly states that the scorer has a responsibility to inform the coach through the official when a team has used all its allotted time outs. And the same world where, if an official determines that a scorer misapplies a rule or just plain doesn't know what they're doing, they can be replaced by the official.

That may not be the way you would do things, but that doesn't change the fact that it's in the rule book.

You seriously need to ease up. The guy brought up a legitimate point, and you're throwing a hissy fit over it.

Would I ever replace the scorer in this instance? No, but that doesn't mean it's not right there in the rules. So why are you blowing him off with such vehemence?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2011, 03:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco View Post
... the rule explicitly states that the scorer has a responsibility to inform the coach through the official when a team has used all its allotted time outs.

Be that as it may, if this isn't done, it doesn't allow the coach any leeway.

Technical foul for excessive timeout.

"But, nobody told me I was out!"

"Oops, sorry about that coach. Try to get you next time."

It is a courtesy to inform the coach, albeit one that is written in the book. It is still ultimately his responsibility to know.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2011, 03:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Be that as it may, if this isn't done, it doesn't allow the coach any leeway.

Technical foul for excessive timeout.

"But, nobody told me I was out!"

"Oops, sorry about that coach. Try to get you next time."

It is a courtesy to inform the coach, albeit one that is written in the book. It is still ultimately his responsibility to know.
No, it doesn't get the coach out of the immediate technical, but at the same time that doesn't make it any less true that a rule has been misapplied.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2011, 03:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco View Post
He's living in a world where the rule explicitly states that the scorer has a responsibility to inform the coach through the official when a team has used all its allotted time outs. And the same world where, if an official determines that a scorer misapplies a rule or just plain doesn't know what they're doing, they can be replaced by the official.

That may not be the way you would do things, but that doesn't change the fact that it's in the rule book.

You seriously need to ease up. The guy brought up a legitimate point, and you're throwing a hissy fit over it.
I am only responding to you because you responded to me. Honestly you could go fly a kite as far as I am concerned, but you are an official and he is not. Because some official is reading this and now they have put an element in their mind they would not ever have thought about from a non-official.

Are you getting rid of a scorer that fails to tell you the timeout situation? You already answered and it is no. And where in the rules does it say we must get rid of a scorer if they fail to follow the letter of the rules? Or better yet, tell me how many times you have done this in your career? How did that work out for you? The point is we are still penalizing the team and in most cases the coaches are extremely aware of their situation. If they are aware of other score book issue, I think they can know when they call a timeout. Most of the time it is a coach that tells what kind of timeout they have left when we ask if they want a 60 or 30 second timeout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco View Post
Would I ever replace the scorer in this instance? No, but that doesn't mean it's not right there in the rules. So why are you blowing him off with such vehemence?
Have you ever read chseagle's comments? Have ever read anyone's responses to his comments other than me? Do you know anything about his background or what he tells people his role is? I am actually being nice compared to others on this board that comment.

He is not an official. He makes many comments about scorer's duties that have nothing to do with our jobs or responsibilities. He has even suggested that he has some authority that he does not have under the rules on many occasions. Not sure what I said was vehemence, but frustration that this conversation was not about removing the score keeper. And if someone did this they might not be working very long at the school or with the assignor.

Peace
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2011, 03:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco View Post
No, it doesn't get the coach out of the immediate technical, but at the same time that doesn't make it any less true that a rule has been misapplied.
And what penalty is applied? Usually rules of significance have a rules remedy if not applied properly. If you are not getting rid of the scorer (good luck with that) what rule or practical application are you going to do something about it? And when you remove the scorer, what are you going to tell your assignor? Do you think your assignor is going to think that was the best way to handle the situation?

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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2011, 03:57pm
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JRut...

the guy...chseagle...just wants to be involved. (Mix the letters around and you might even get the word LOVED out of it.)

Eagle man is proud of his "responsabilities". He is doing a service involving BASKETBALL.

Eagle man does not have a SCORERS/TIMERS fourm to go to...therefore,
he comes to the closest thing he can...a BASKETBALL forum.

Eagle man is proud that he is PART OF A CREW on Friday and Saturday nights...(he is isn't he?)

Eagle man just wants us to know he is as proficient in his DUTIES as many of you are in yours.

I'd be PROUD to know I have a table crew member as dedicated as chseagle seems to be.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2011, 04:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude View Post
JRut...

the guy...chseagle...just wants to be involved. (Mix the letters around and you might even get the word LOVED out of it.)

Eagle man is proud of his "responsabilities". He is doing a service involving BASKETBALL.

Eagle man does not have a SCORERS/TIMERS fourm to go to...therefore,
he comes to the closest thing he can...a BASKETBALL forum.

Eagle man is proud that he is PART OF A CREW on Friday and Saturday nights...(he is isn't he?)

Eagle man just wants us to know he is as proficient in his DUTIES as many of you are in yours.

I'd be PROUD to know I have a table crew member as dedicated as chseagle seems to be.
Well then stick to his role and let officials make those decisions (Remember he wanted prevent a coach from doing something previously). Quoting a rule and telling people what the remedy is or is not his role.

Peace
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2011, 04:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude View Post
JRut...

the guy...chseagle...just wants to be involved. (Mix the letters around and you might even get the word LOVED out of it.)

Eagle man is proud of his "responsabilities". He is doing a service involving BASKETBALL.

Eagle man does not have a SCORERS/TIMERS fourm to go to...therefore,
he comes to the closest thing he can...a BASKETBALL forum.

Eagle man is proud that he is PART OF A CREW on Friday and Saturday nights...(he is isn't he?)

Eagle man just wants us to know he is as proficient in his DUTIES as many of you are in yours.

I'd be PROUD to know I have a table crew member as dedicated as chseagle seems to be.
Rookie, did you get a chance to read my PMs to you?
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2011, 06:06pm
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The only time I can remember replacing a scorer was quite a few years ago during a 6th grade boys game in our local kids rec league. I came to the table to report a technical foul against a player for using profanity. The scorer folded his arms across his chest, shook his head and said he was refusing to "write that down". I just stared at him. He then said the kid was his son and his son "would never do anything like that". At first, I thought it was a joke, but he was serious. I called that team's coach over and told him he had to replace the scorer. In this league, each team provides one parent for the score table. Home does the book and visitors do the clock.

BTW - the guy got up and left the table without incident.
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