Deliberate lane violations on free throw?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Would you call a T on the team who holds the ball out near the division line while the other team stays in a tight zone?

No....the clock is running and the game will naturally come to an end.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

The committee gave us specific examples of what they consider "actionless" - not being available to start the game after the half, preventing the ball from becoming live, and what happens after there has already been a warning for delay issued. The OP's FT sitch does not fit any of these specific situations.

Those are all actions that prevent the game from proceeding. The clock can't start.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

When you expand the definition to fit your feeling of what is intended, how do you separate what is legal and what isn't? My first question above is very legitimate - how do answer an opposing coach who asks you why it isn't a T on the team who simply holds the ball? That's about as "actionless" as it gets. Why isn't it a T on the team who is playing the zone? After all, the other team would gladly continue play if the team came out and played closer defense. So, are they the ones "responsible" for the "actionless contest"? Let's look at the specific play in the OP - at which point do you consider it "actionless"? The 3rd violation? 5th? 10th? Whichever number you choose, how do you justify the previous one NOT being a T, but this one is?

We have to be careful in putting our own feelings into what we feel is a definition. The same is true about about what is an intentional foul. "Intent" isn't really a part of the definition, although you could make your same arguments there.

"Actionless" is NOT about ball activity or defensive pressure or an attempt to score. It is about the game not moving forward. A team holding ball is not preventing the game from moving forward....the clock is running and the game will end.

In all of the listed cases, the result is the clock not starting....and one of them is a result of a repeated violation that prevents the clock from starting (delay warnings).

You could say that this team is preventing the ball from becoming live....sort of. In any case, they're deliberately committing infractions that are preventing the game from moving forward. That sounds like actionless to me.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No....the clock is running and the game will naturally come to an end.

Those are all actions that prevent the game from proceeding. The clock can't start.

Camron - see my answer above. 10-1-5(c) can happen while the clock is running, so there doesn't appear to be a distinction.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You could say that this team is preventing the ball from becoming live....sort of. In any case, they're deliberately committing infractions that are preventing the game from moving forward. That sounds like actionless to me.

"Sort of" doesn't count when it comes to the rules. "Sounds like actionless to me" doesn't really count either. If that actually counted, then I could justify calling the T in my stall example, because, well, standing there with the ball without doing anything with certainly sounds like actionless to me!

I'm just looking for an actual rules basis. Again, find me a past interp, and I'll give in. In the meantime...

[Adam]

So, just to clarify, are you saying you'd sit there and let 45 FTs happen in this scenario?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So, just to clarify, are you saying you'd sit there and let 45 FTs happen in this scenario?

...and I'd be eating my Snickers, since I wouldn't be going anywhere for a while... Realistically, it will never reach 45 attempts, for the reasons I mentioned before.

I agree, it's a pain in the a$$. But can you show me a rule where, outside of specific delay situations where a warning can be issued, you can penalize multiple violations with a greater penalty than is already listed for that violation? And at what point does it change from a "normal" violation to one that becomes a T?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Camron - see my answer above. 10-1-5(c) can happen while the clock is running, so there doesn't appear to be a distinction.


...

10-1-5c only allows the clock to run for 5-6 seconds max and then the clock is stopped. Holding the ball at half court doesn't stop the clock.

Also, 'c,d, e, & f' all fall into the delay-of-game category and have formal warnings associated with them, holding the ball at half court does not.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

10-1-5c only allows the clock to run for 5-6 seconds max and then the clock is stopped. Holding the ball at half court doesn't stop the clock.

Also, 'c,d, e, & f' all fall into the delay-of-game category and have formal warnings associated with them, holding the ball at half court does not.

You first gave me the distinction of the clock running vs. stopped, now your distinction is the clock only running for a short time. Either way, your justifications for considering multiple FT violations the same as "actionless" are only based on your feelings, rather than on a specific rule basis. That's why I was giving the stall example - I could (very loosely) consider that "actionless" as well, without any specific rule backing, and doing that encourages other "loose" interpretations of other rules.

I agree the OP would be a lousy situation. But all I'm looking for is a legitimate reason for calling the T, other than "sort of", "should be", "sounds like", etc.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You first gave me the distinction of the clock running vs. stopped, now your distinction is the clock only running for a short time...

Really? You might want to re-read what I said. I said one scenario will allow the quarter to come to an end and one won't. Your justification obviously includes re-writing what I said. And I guess the new word for "judgement" in your rule book is now "feelings".

10-1-5 gives us the leeway to apply our judgement as to whether the "act" of repeatedly violating is causing the game to become an action-less contest.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Really? You might want to re-read what I said. I said one scenario will allow the quarter to come to an end and one won't. Your justification obviously includes re-writing what I said. And I guess the new word for "judgement" in your rule book is now "feelings".

10-1-5 gives us the leeway to apply our judgement as to whether the "act" of repeatedly violating is causing the game to become an action-less contest.

Sorry, I was not trying to re-write anything. I was only trying to point out you were giving examples and reasoning that are not specifically mentioned in the rules. They are, on the surface, reasonable enough, and I'm not trying put them down.

I'm not exchanging the word "judgement" for "feelings", but I know officials who get into trouble by doing just that. I know you are using the words "...and similar acts" as your basis for using judgement, but I'm not sure 10-1-5 gives us much room for judgement outside of the specific examples in (a) thru (f). (c) thru (f) are specific delay examples where the official warning is given first, and (a) is the specific situation at the beginning of the half. If it was to apply to ANY violation that is repeated, why wouldn't it say that? Why is each specific delay example given it's own section? The only section that seems to allow judgement is (b), which is preventing the ball from becoming promptly live or being put into play. Even then, it mentions using the resumption-of-play procedure in certain situations first. And we all seem to agree (b) does not apply to the OP, as the ball is alive during the FT.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Sorry, I was not trying to re-write anything. I was only trying to point out you were giving examples and reasoning that are not specifically mentioned in the rules. They are, on the surface, reasonable enough, and I'm not trying put them down.

I'm not exchanging the word "judgement" for "feelings", but I know officials who get into trouble by doing just that. I know you are using the words "...and similar acts" as your basis for using judgement, but I'm not sure 10-1-5 gives us much room for judgement outside of the specific examples in (a) thru (f). (c) thru (f) are specific delay examples where the official warning is given first, and (a) is the specific situation at the beginning of the half. If it was to apply to ANY violation that is repeated, why wouldn't it say that? Why is each specific delay example given it's own section? The only section that seems to allow judgement is (b), which is preventing the ball from becoming promptly live or being put into play. Even then, it mentions using the resumption-of-play procedure in certain situations first. And we all seem to agree (b) does not apply to the OP, as the ball is alive during the FT.

Okay, I am calling Mr. Annoying Spelling Guy. Your repeated violations of the word "judgment" are too much to ignore.

[asdf]

I don't need a specific rule to address this.

My knowledge of the game of basketball including responsibility of the officials and the coaches points me to assessing a technical foul against the head coach. Problem solved.....

First, in working 65+ games a season, I may have at the most, a dozen lane violations. Having four in a row on a foul shot should alert even the most inexperienced official that something is up.

Next, I know that coaches are charged with the responsibility not of teaching unethical tactics that violate the spirit of the rules. We're talking interscholastic sports here fellas.....an extension of the classroom..... purposely violating the rules just to gain an advantage is against any code of ethics for any coach. We would not stand for it in the classroom, we shouldn't stand for it on the basketball court.

Third, repeated, intentional violations of a rule are not a part of the game of basketball and are to be considered unsporting.

Technical Foul.... problem solved.....

game report to state association to follow.....

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by asdf

I don't need a specific rule to address this.

Ah, right on cue. Feelings really are the same as judgement.

Originally Posted by asdf

...purposely violating the rules just to gain an advantage is against any code of ethics for any coach.

So, you agree that fouling at the end of the game (purposely violating the rules) to stop the clock (to gain an advantage) is an automatic T? Or do you think it's worth a forfeit?

We all know however that the rules already allow for this supposed "unacceptable behavior". So what you and I know and feel don't really apply; we only have the rules, and there is just as much a precedent in the rules to allow for supposed "unacceptable behavior" as there is to not allow it. So, until I get direction about which side this falls under, I cannot make up my own penalties.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ah, right on cue. Feelings really are the same as judgement.


So, you agree that fouling at the end of the game (purposely violating the rules) to stop the clock (to gain an advantage) is an automatic T? Or do you think it's worth a forfeit?

We all know however that the rules already allow for this supposed "unacceptable behavior". So what you and I know and feel don't really apply; we only have the rules, and there is just as much a precedent in the rules to allow for supposed "unacceptable behavior" as there is to not allow it. So, until I get direction about which side this falls under, I cannot make up my own penalties.

"acts such as:' (but not limited to) or "includes the following and similar acts" is all I need for rules support.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, you agree that fouling at the end of the game (purposely violating the rules) to stop the clock (to gain an advantage) is an automatic T? Or do you think it's worth a forfeit?

Nice try.

Fouling at the end of the game has specific penalties. It's an accepted practice. The rules provide for remedies, remedies that vary depending on the foul. The game will continue no matter what happens.

In the original play that we are talking about, the game will not continue.

One of the attributes of a good official is courage. Taking the stance that "if the penalty is not specifically listed in the book, I'm not penalizing it" shows anything but courage.

We're not making anything up. We're taking care of business as it should be taken care of.

If you don't believe me, take a second and send your stance to your state officiating supervisor and for that matter, each and every member of the NFHS Rules committee.

You'll get laughed out of the building.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Camron - see my answer above. 10-1-5(c) can happen while the clock is running, so there doesn't appear to be a distinction.


"Sort of" doesn't count when it comes to the rules. "Sounds like actionless to me" doesn't really count either. If that actually counted, then I could justify calling the T in my stall example, because, well, standing there with the ball without doing anything with certainly sounds like actionless to me!

I'm just looking for an actual rules basis. Again, find me a past interp, and I'll give in. In the meantime...

Any time a rule says "such as", it is not an exhaustive list. If you insist that the specific case be listed for it to be applicable, you're ignoring the clear intent that other actions could be considered as actionless. They can't list every possible scenario and expect the officials to use a little of their gray matter to know it when they see it.

Repeated deliberate infractions are not in the spirit of the game....anyway you want to dissect it. Fouls are covered by the Intentional foul rule (whether it is called properly or not is another matter). Violations that wander into the realm of intentional infractions in order to gain an advantage work their way towards unsportsmanlike conduct an/or being an actionless contest.

However you cut it, there is more than sufficient rules support to address it without getting stuck in an infinite loop.