Hands Up or Hands Down?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I can tell you it ain't no "jazz hands."

APG:

Please read my blue addition to my original post.

MTD, Sr.

[APG]

You go ahead and make that call MTD...I'm still not calling that.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

You go ahead and make that call MTD...I'm still not calling that.

Even if you don't plan on calling it, you can still tell them to knock it off...."If I see you doing that and I think it distracted the shooter and caused him to miss, he'll get another shot" (emphasis on "and I think it..."). You can get the desired result without ever calling it.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Even if you don't plan on calling it, you can still tell them to knock it off...."If I see you doing that and I think it distracted the shooter and caused him to miss, he'll get another shot" (emphasis on "and I think it..."). You can get the desired result without ever calling it.

I'd go that route if a coach made an issue of it.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

You go ahead and make that call MTD...I'm still not calling that.

APG:

Camron's post is what I do and have done my entire career. But fact remains is that it is disconcertion because it is keeping the shooter from having an 'unhindered' attempt to make a free throw. The word 'unhindered' is the key word in the definition of a free throw. If you aren't going to stop at least the two defensive players nearest the free thrower from playing the piano, then how can you penalize the same defensive players from saying "miss it, miss it, miss it" while the free thrower is attempting his free throw.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

APG:

Camron's post is what I do and have down my entire career. But fact remains is that it is disconcertion because it is keeping the shooter from having an 'unhindered' attempt to make a free throw. The word 'unhindered' is the key word in the definition of a free throw. If you aren't going to stop at least the two defensive players nearest the free thrower from playing the piano, then how can you penalize the same defensive players from saying "miss it, miss it, miss it" while the free thrower is attempting his free throw.

MTD, Sr.

Sorry, I'm not convinced it's in any way a hinderance to wiggle the fingers. Unless you're willing to require all defenders along the lane stand perfectly still, you're just setting yourself up for problems by trying to deal with this.

Raising and/or lowering arms in concert with other teammates? Sure. Wiggling the fingers? Nah.

[Rob1968]

9.1.3D and 9.1.3G Both apply, and both mention the judgement of the covering official.

[APG]

I take unhindered to mean...you can't get in the shooter's face. I'm not reading more into it. The defensive team can not disconcert not because it's "hindering" rather because the rules in all the codes say you can't disconcert. Disconcertion is a judgement call and in my judgement, I have a hard time seeing how someone waving their fingers is disconcertion at all.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Sorry, I'm not convinced it's in any way a hinderance to wiggle the fingers. Unless you're willing to require all defenders along the lane stand perfectly still, you're just setting yourself up for problems by trying to deal with this.

Raising and/or lowering arms in concert with other teammates? Sure. Wiggling the fingers? Nah.

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I take unhindered to mean...you can't get in the shooter's face. I'm not reading more into it. The defensive team can not disconcert not because it's "hindering" rather because the rules in all the codes say you can't disconcert. Disconcertion is a judgement call and in my judgement, I have a hard time seeing how someone waving their fingers is disconcertion at all.

Why are the defenders doing it? They're doing it with the hope that it will cause the shooter to be distracted and miss. It may not be effective very often, but that is their intent. Since the ONLY reason for them to do it is to disconcert the shooter, why allow it?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I take unhindered to mean...you can't get in the shooter's face. I'm not reading more into it. The defensive team can not disconcert not because it's "hindering" rather because the rules in all the codes say you can't disconcert. Disconcertion is a judgement call and in my judgement, I have a hard time seeing how someone waving their fingers is disconcertion at all.

APG:

Since you believe that only getting "in the shooter's face" is hindering the shooter, then it must be okay for the defensive players to yell "miss it, miss it, miss it" while the shooter is attempting his free throw.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

APG:

Since you believe that only getting "in the shooter's face" is hindering the shooter, then it must be okay for the defensive players to yell "miss it, miss it, miss it" while the shooter is attempting his free throw.

MTD, Sr.

That's not what he said. He said there's a difference between hindering and disconcerting. The rule prohibits both but they are not synonymous.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Why are the defenders doing it? They're doing it with the hope that it will cause the shooter to be distracted and miss. It may not be effective very often, but that is their intent. Since the ONLY reason for them to do it is to disconcert the shooter, why allow it?

Because I see the rule prohibiting actual disconcertion, not feeble attempts at distraction.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Snaqs:

What Camron and I are saying that the word "unhindered" means just that. The free thrower is being awarded an attempt to score one point from behind the free throw line without any distractions from his opponents. This has been the starndard for as long as I have been officiating and before. The definition of what is a free throw has been the same for well over fifty years.

Camron described how he handles potentional situations of this nature and I have been handling situations like this just like Camron does for as long as I can remember.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Fair enough, and I have a great deal of respect for both of you.

However, the only time I ever see "jazz hands" is in low level girls ball, and I've never, ever, not once, had an opposing coach or player complain about it. The movement isn't that big (unlike arms rising and falling).

When I played, I wouldn't have been able to see the fingers anyway.

I don't consider jazz hands to be either a hindrance or a disconcertion. If a coach mentioned it, I'd probably simply compliment the team on their "jazz hands" and see if that works.

[APG]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.