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Old Wed Mar 19, 2003, 09:33am
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Lat night Minn. HS Boys 2A State Quarter Final. With less than 1 minute to play in 4th qrtr of a very competative game A1 attempts a shot. A2 tips the rebound back towards the division line and A3 recovers in the backcourt. Under both FED and NCAA rules what is your call?
If applicable it can be assumed that A2 intentionally tipped the ball back (away from his basket)towards a teammate.
This has sparked a huge debate and everyones input would be appreciated. Rule references would as well. Thanks in advance.
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Old Wed Mar 19, 2003, 09:42am
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No team control unless team member is holding or dribbling.
Many, if not most, bats are purposefully directed, yet no bats are considered holding or dribbling.

If a single Big Hand grabs a rebound and throws it out, then that may be considered holding (and player/team control) in the eye of the beholder.
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Old Wed Mar 19, 2003, 09:52am
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no b/c violation here; 4-12-5: "team control does not exist during a jump ball or the touching of a rebound, but is established when a player secures control";
I don't think this tapping is to be considered "control of the ball"
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Old Wed Mar 19, 2003, 10:41am
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A1 passes to teammate A2. A2 instead of catching the ball, intentionally bats (giving the ball direction) the ball towards his basket. After the ball has bounced on the floor A2 catches the ball with both hands and begins to dribble. Is this a double dribble. 4.15.3---"The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or "batting" the ball to the floor". 4.31----A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, "bats" or rolls the ball to another player. I think it is obvious that a dribble or pass may be started by a "bat". It seems pretty clear to me that if A2's "bat" is to a teammate (whether it be frontcourt or backcourt) is a controlled act then it is a pass. I can argue also, that if A2's "bat/pass" is from frontcourt to backcourt--then it is a violation if a team A player is first to touch the ball. The bat must be a controlled act and not a wild uncontrolled slap/bat.
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Old Wed Mar 19, 2003, 11:09am
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Quote:
Originally posted by APHP
I can argue also, that if A2's "bat/pass" is from frontcourt to backcourt--then it is a violation if a team A player is first to touch the ball.
You can argue it all you want. . .

Mick nailed it in the first reply here. Team control is established when a player on that team has player control. And player control is very clearly defined as "holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds". Batting the ball does not establish team control, even if you intentionally bat it in a specific direction. Bat = no player control. No player control = no team control. No team control = no backcourt violation.

Chuck
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Old Wed Mar 19, 2003, 11:23am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by APHP
I can argue also, that if A2's "bat/pass" is from frontcourt to backcourt--then it is a violation if a team A player is first to touch the ball.
You can argue it all you want. . .

Mick nailed it in the first reply here. Team control is established when a player on that team has player control. And player control is very clearly defined as "holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds". Batting the ball does not establish team control, even if you intentionally bat it in a specific direction. Bat = no player control. No player control = no team control. No team control = no backcourt violation.
The explanation in casebook play 4.12COMMENT backs Mick and Chuck up.The last sentence states "No team is in control while the ball is dead,during a throw-in or jump,after the ball has left the hand on try or tap for goal,nor during the period which follows any of these acts WHILE THE BALL IS SLAPPED AWAY FROM OTHER PLAYERS IN AN ATTEMPT TO SECURE CONTROL".

Also see casebook play 4.12.6(b) for similar logic and rules backup.
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Old Wed Mar 19, 2003, 11:24am
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Quote:
Originally posted by APHP
I think it is obvious that a dribble or pass may be started by a "bat".
Just because a dribble or pass MAY be started by a bat, doesn't mean a bat must by definition start a dribble or pass. The definitions of player control and team control are exact and limited enough that there is no judgment about this play. It's completely legal
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Old Wed Mar 19, 2003, 12:08pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
This has sparked a huge debate...
More proof that many coaches and fans have no clue about what the rules really are.

I hope to God a BC violation was not called.
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Old Wed Mar 19, 2003, 12:31pm
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Surely we can agree that a dribble can begin with a "bat"....i.e. Rule 4-15.3 So--when does player control begin. Some are saying that player control does not begin with the dribble--o.k.--fine! Then when does player control begin.
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Old Wed Mar 19, 2003, 12:38pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by APHP
Some are saying that player control does not begin with the dribble--o.k.--fine! Then when does player control begin.
I don't think anyone would say that there's no player control during the dribble. But to answer your question, I would say that the official has to judge when the player is actually dribbling, as opposed to simply hitting the ball away. If the bat is a dribble, then control starts with the bat (since in this particular case "bat" = "dribble").

But since "bat" does not always equal "dribble", I'm not sure that helps in the original situation.

Chuck
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Old Wed Mar 19, 2003, 12:53pm
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Seems to me a bat by A1 can only start a dribble (thus establishing control) if the dribble is continued by A1. Therefore, a bat to another player is not a dribble, and is thus not the start of player/team control.
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Old Thu Mar 20, 2003, 06:31pm
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Thanks for the feedback. The problem is, this WAS called a violation. Luckily, the offended team got the ball back on a missed shot and had a chance to win the game so the call did not have a detrimental effect on the game.Sitting in the stands w/ a bunch of other HS officials, I was one of the few that was adament that this was not a BC violation. It reaqlly surprized me that I was one of the few who KNEW this was the wrong call. Still wondering (since I have traded in my basketball book for baseball) can anyone givew me the NC2A rules reference on this? We have our spring officials meeting in April and I want to present this as a caseplay so it does NOT happen again....
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Old Thu Mar 20, 2003, 07:13pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
can anyone givew me the NC2A rules reference on this?
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Old Thu Mar 20, 2003, 07:44pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by APHP
Surely we can agree that a dribble can begin with a "bat"....i.e. Rule 4-15.3 So--when does player control begin. Some are saying that player control does not begin with the dribble--o.k.--fine! Then when does player control begin.
Yes in theory I guess you could consider the start of a dribble a bat. But I think realistically, you have to use common sense. If you consider a bat part of a dribble, then you will have people that will not buy that call, just like the officials that are here disagreeing with your point. That is why the saying "call the obvious" is so important to officiating. You do not want to make a career, nit picking definitions and understandings in the rules.

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Old Fri Mar 21, 2003, 12:21am
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Re: Comes back to what I always say.

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:
Originally posted by APHP
Surely we can agree that a dribble can begin with a "bat"....i.e. Rule 4-15.3 So--when does player control begin. Some are saying that player control does not begin with the dribble--o.k.--fine! Then when does player control begin.
Yes in theory I guess you could consider the start of a dribble a bat. But I think realistically, you have to use common sense. If you consider a bat part of a dribble, then you will have people that will not buy that call, just like the officials that are here disagreeing with your point. That is why the saying "call the obvious" is so important to officiating. You do not want to make a career, nit picking definitions and understandings in the rules.
I agree with your logic but in this play, it is critical that you know exactly what the rule states, or you will make the same wrong call that these guys made.
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