Make The Call

[APG]

I don't see how FIBA deems this to be a charging foul. It looked quite obvious to me that the defenders slide into the path after the offensive player was airborne. In reality, I would have had a no call on the play but definitely not a charge.

Also, does this call deserve a whistle from the slot or trail? It appears in the clip that the lead was in the best position to see the lateral movement of the defenders and passed on the contact (IMO rightfully so).

[Camron Rust]

If you listen to the description in the video, they consider position to be obtained when a defender has both feet in position, not when the bodies finish moving. In that case, they were there before the offensive player left the floor. The remaining lateral movement didn't include foot movement but the straightening of the bodies.

In the US, I don't think anyone interprets position like that. We usually look to see if the defender had their torso in the path AND both fee on the floor.....making this a block.

[APG]

You may be right Camron...I always assumed that guarding rules in FIBA were the same as NF/NCAA save for the newly implemented restricted area (which is actually different than the NBA's rule).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

You may be right Camron...I always assumed that guarding rules in FIBA were the same as NF/NCAA save for the newly implemented restricted area (which is actually different than the NBA's rule).

It may not be that the rules are different, just some nuances of interpretation. Exactly when are they in position. It is a dynamic game and there vs. not there is never an exact science.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It may not be that the rules are different, just some nuances of interpretation. Exactly when are they in position. It is a dynamic game and there vs. not there is never an exact science.

Well some agree with the charging call so they're agreeing with the FIBA interpretation...maybe they can explain it better.

[JRutledge]

I got a block. It looks like the player is coming forward when the passer/ball handler is airborne. And that is based on our interpretations here. I do not work FIBA so I do not have to worry about what they think right now.

Peace

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

In the US, I don't think anyone interprets position like that. We usually look to see if the defender had their torso in the path AND both fee on the floor.....making this a block.

I've always been taught that LGP is obtained by two feet on the floor, facing the opponent. I don't recall ever hearing about a torso criterion.

[APG]

4-23
ART. 2...To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

Two feet on the floor and torso facing the defender...if your torso is facing the defender, then invariably your torso must be in the path of the player.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I've always been taught that LGP is obtained by two feet on the floor, facing the opponent. I don't recall ever hearing about a torso criterion.

...and in the path. But exactly what has to be in the path? That is the question. It seems to differ in the FIBA realm vs what is common in the US.

I would not have considered either of those players to have been in the path of the airborne player before the player became airborne. Yes their feet were down, but they hadn't yet occupied the path....there was a clear line in front of the airborne player at the time he jumped.

I may have not called a block, but I don't think they were in position by US standards.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

4-23
ART. 2...To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

Two feet on the floor and torso facing the defender...if your torso is facing the defender, then invariably your torso must be in the path of the player.

Not true. I can have two feet on the floor and be facing you from any one of many directions. Only one of those directions is in the path.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not true. I can have two feet on the floor and be facing you from any one of many directions. Only one of those directions is in the path.

Shut up Camron*

*You're right


4-23 Guarding
ART. 1...Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Shut up Camron*

*You're right


4-23 Guarding
ART. 1...Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent...

And that is why the above play would be a block in NFHS...neither player had their body in the path before the opponent was airborne. They only had the feet in the path.

And even in the US, I'm NOT calling this a block since the airborne player dumped the ball off to a teammate who was in great position for a very short range shot....either getting 2 points or getting fouled while shooting. Calling that block would penalize the offensive team.

[Pantherdreams]

Here are the appropriate fiba rules:


33.3 Legal guarding position
A defensive player has established an initial legal guarding position when:
 He is facing his opponent, and
 He has both feet on the floor.
The legal guarding position extends vertically above him (cylinder) from the floor to the ceiling. He may raise his arms and hands above his head or jump vertically but he must maintain them in a vertical position inside the imaginary cylinder.


33.6 A player who is in the air
A player who has jumped into the air from a place on the playing court has the right to land again at the same place.
He has the right to land on another place on the playing court provided that the landing place and the direct path between the take-off and landing place is not already occupied by an opponent(s) at the time of take-off.
If a player has taken off and landed but his momentum causes him to contact an opponent who has taken a legal guarding position beyond the landing place, the jumper is responsible for the contact.
An opponent may not move into the path of a player after that player has jumped into the air. Moving under a player who is in the air and causing contact is usually an unsportsmanlike foul and in certain circumstances may be a disqualifying foul.


33.8 Charging
Charging is illegal personal contact, with or without the ball, by pushing or moving into an opponent’s torso.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Here are the appropriate fiba rules:

...

Appears to be the same (but you didn't quote the basic definition of guarding where the key element is located in the NFHS rules). If, in NFHS rules, B5 is not in the path, B5 is not even guarding, much less possessing LGP.

Assuming the video is the official interpretation of being in the spot, it looks like FIBA only requires the feet to be in the spot to have satisfied the part about being in the path where then NFHS requires the body to be in the path.

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Appears to be the same (but you didn't quote the basic definition of guarding where the key element is located in the NFHS rules). If, in NFHS rules, B5 is not in the path, B5 is not even guarding, much less possessing LGP.

Assuming the video is the official interpretation of being in the spot, it looks like FIBA only requires the feet to be in the spot to have satisfied the part about being in the path where then NFHS requires the body to be in the path.

Here you go:

33.4 Guarding a player who controls the ball
When guarding a player who controls (holding or dribbling) the ball, the elements of
time and distance do not apply.
The player with the ball must expect to be guarded and must be prepared to stop or
change his direction whenever an opponent takes an initial legal guarding position
in front of him, even if this is done within a fraction of a second.
The guarding (defensive) player must establish an initial legal guarding position
without causing contact before taking his position.
Once the defensive player has established an initial legal guarding position, he may
move to guard his opponent, but he may not extend his arms, shoulders, hips or legs
to prevent the dribbler from passing by him.
When judging a charge/block situation involving a player with the ball, an official
shall use the following principles:
 The defensive player must establish an initial legal guarding position by facing
the player with the ball and having both feet on the floor.
 The defensive player may remain stationary, jump vertically, move laterally or
backwards in order to maintain the initial legal guarding position.
 When moving to maintain the initial legal guarding position, one foot or both
feet may be off the floor for an instant, as long as the movement is lateral or
backwards, but not towards the player with the ball.
 Contact must occur on the torso, in which case the defensive player would be
considered as having been at the place of contact first.
 Having established a legal guarding position the defensive player may turn
within his cylinder to avoid injury.
In any of the above situations, the contact shall be considered as having been
caused by the player with the ball.