Throw-in spot

[bob jenkins]

From the NCAA rules book (I'm not sure which side this supports):

Section 11. Shot Clock
Art. 1. The team in control shall attempt a try for field goal within 35
seconds for (men) and within 30 seconds for (women) after any player on
the playing court legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in
or when a team initially gains possession of the ball from a jump ball, an
unsuccessful try for field goal or a loose ball.
Art. 2. It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s
hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time or a try does not
subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.

[Raymond]

This is closest we'll come to seeing the throw-in spot addressed:

A.R. 176. A1 shoots and while the ball is in the air, the shot-clock horn sounds to indicate the end of the shot-clock period. While the ball is in the air, the official calls a double foul on A2 and B2.

...(3) The try is unsuccessful and does not hit the ring/flange. RULING: The official shall wait to see what happens to the try. The ball does not become dead until the try in flight ends.

...(3) Charge the fouls. The try ends when it is certain it will not be successful, which occurs simultaneously with the shot-clock violation. Therefore, the point of interruption is the shot-clock violation. Award the ball to Team B at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred with a reset of the shot clock.
(Rule 9-11.2, 7-5.1 and 2-11.6.e)

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

This is closest we'll come to seeing the throw-in spot addressed:

A.R. 176. A1 shoots and while the ball is in the air, the shot-clock horn sounds to indicate the end of the shot-clock period. While the ball is in the air, the official calls a double foul on A2 and B2.

...(3) The try is unsuccessful and does not hit the ring/flange. RULING: The official shall wait to see what happens to the try. The ball does not become dead until the try in flight ends.
...(3) Charge the fouls. The try ends when it is certain it will not be successful, which occurs simultaneously with the shot-clock violation. Therefore, the point of interruption is the shot-clock violation. Award the ball to Team B at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred with a reset of the shot clock.
(Rule 9-11.2, 7-5.1 and 2-11.6.e)

That being said, it sounds like an endline throw-in is in order.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

Thought I would throw this in: The shot-clock horn does not stop play unless recognized by an official’s whistle.

Say a player attempts a three point field goal from half court, and the shot clock horn sounds in mid flight. We wait to see if the ball hits the basket, or goes in. If it doesn't, does it make sense to give the ball to the other team at half court?

So I say this situation should be handled with a throw in on the baseline. As the violation occurred when the ball did not hit the basket, or go in. Therefore nearest the spot would be the baseline.

So was my rational thinking somewhat correct?? I don't know what to think now either.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tref

That being said, it sounds like an endline throw-in is in order.

While it may be, I don't see were you can draw that conclusion from the posted AR. It only addresses how the shot and fouls are administered relative to each other. It is silent about where the throwin should occur.

[BillyMac]

I don't usually use a rule set where there is a shot clock (a few high school prep games each season), so I have no idea where the ball is inbounded on a shot clock violation, however I do know about another violation where the throwin spot may not be anywhere near the ball: Ball handler has the ball in back corner of frontcourt, near the scorer's table, and the lead official calls a three second violation on an offensive player in the paint. Ball is inbounded under the basket. Of this, I'm sure.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I don't usually use a rule set where there is a shot clock (a few high school prep games each season), so I have no idea where the ball is inbounded on a shot clock violation, however I do know about another violation where the throwin spot may not be anywhere near the ball: Ball handler has the ball in back corner of frontcourt, near the scorer's table, and the lead official calls a three second violation on an offensive player in the paint. Ball is inbounded under the basket. Of this, I'm sure.

Very true

[rockyroad]

The violation is for the shot not hitting the ring or flange (the rim) before the shot clock horn sounds. Since the ball was in the air but did not hit the ring, the spot nearest the violation should be the endline.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

The violation is for the shot not hitting the ring or flange (the rim) before the shot clock horn sounds.

No it isn't...it is for not releasing a shot before the shot clok horn sounds. The part about hitting the rim is to give it a concrete way to define if the shot was an adequate attempt vs. an attempt to skirt the shot clock rule.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Since the ball was in the air but did not hit the ring, the spot nearest the violation should be the endline.

Just to play devil's advocate...

What if the "shot" doesn't get anywhere close to the rim.....maybe it was a full court heave that, due to the shooter being off balance, that landed at the top of the key or at the division line.

Also, what if the thrown ball was a pass to a player near the rim (alley-oop) and the horn sounds just after the pass was released.

It seems that the defensive team should gain possession after the violation at the point where the other team had legally advanced the ball before the violation.

Also, IIRC, there have been rulings that the violation occurs retroactively to the point where the horn sounds....not when a shot misses...a delayed violation. Those cases, IIRC, related to the game clock status in the end game when the shot clock expires with little game time remaining and provide that the game clock is restored to the time when the shot clock expired.

If I'm remember that case correctly, that would support that the violation has already occurred before the ball nears the rim....perhaps just after the release.

What effect might that have on the location?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

...Also, IIRC, there have been rulings that the violation occurs retroactively to the point where the horn sounds....not when a shot misses...a delayed violation. Those cases, IIRC, related to the game clock status in the end game when the shot clock expires with little game time remaining and provide that the game clock is restored to the time when the shot clock expired.

If I'm remember that case correctly, that would support that the violation has already occurred before the ball nears the rim....perhaps just after the release.

What effect might that have on the location?

AR 33 does not support this assertion.

"A.R. 33. There are 37 seconds (men) or 32 seconds (women) on the game clock and 35 seconds (men) or 30 seconds (women) on the shot clock. Team A uses time before A1 releases the ball for a try for goal. After A1 releases the ball, the shot-clock horn sounds. The ball does not strike the ring or flange. The officials call a shot-clock violation. At the same time as the official’s whistle, the game clock sounds, signaling that the period has ended. Shall the official put two seconds back on the game clock?

RULING: No. The shot-clock horn sounded at the expiration of the shot-clock period; however, this does not stop play unless recognized by the official’s whistle. The official’s whistle for the shot-clock violation stopped play. The expiration of playing time was indicated by the timer’s signal. This signal shall terminate player activity (Rule 2-10.14). The period ended with the violation. However, in games with a 10th-of-a-second game clock display and an official courtside television monitor, when in the judgment of the official time has elapsed from when he or she signaled for the clock to be stopped to when the game clock stopped, the monitor may be used to determine the correct time to be put back on the game clock. In games without an official courtside television monitor, the official is required to have definite information relative to the time involved to correct the time elapsed.
(Rule 2-13.2.c.3, 4-62, 2-10.14, 2-11.9, 5-10.1.c, 5-10.2.a, and
6-5.1.d)"

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

In my searching for info, I came across the following for FIBA (highlighting mine)...

http://www.theeboa.com/tools/2010-20...renceChart.pdf

Shot Clock
24 seconds.
Ball must be released prior to sounding of horn and subsequently hit rim.
NEW: On a throw in – clock starts as soon as any player touches or is touched by the ball on the court.
If horn sounds – don’t blow whistle and wait to see what happens = if shot doesn’t hit rim or go in, or defense gets immediate control, no whistle, play continues.
Throw in for a shot clock violation is nearest to the spot where the shot was taken.
Shot clock is reset or sounds in error – official may correct it. If sounds in error, try to ignore the horn as long as neither team placed at a disadvantage.

There are a couple of statements that related to what we're discussing here. Sure, its FIBA, but I felt it still worth mentioning since FIBA has been making moves to be more like the various US rules.

See post #5.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No it isn't...it is for not releasing a shot before the shot clok horn sounds. The part about hitting the rim is to give it a concrete way to define if the shot was an adequate attempt vs. an attempt to skirt the shot clock rule.

You're wrong...

Art. 2. It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s
hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time or a try does not
subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.

Once the shot has left the shooter's hands before the buzzer sounds, the violation then becomes a matter of hitting the "rim" or not...so in the OP, the violation was for not hitting the rim...so the spot closest that violation is the endline.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

You're wrong...

Art. 2. It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s
hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time or a try does not
subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.

Once the shot has left the shooter's hands before the buzzer sounds, the violation then becomes a matter of hitting the "rim" or not...so in the OP, the violation was for not hitting the rim...so the spot closest that violation is the endline.

How am I wrong...what I highlighted in the rule is precisely what I said.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

You're wrong...

Art. 2. It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s
hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time or a try does not
subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.

Once the shot has left the shooter's hands before the buzzer sounds, the violation then becomes a matter of hitting the "rim" or not...so in the OP, the violation was for not hitting the rim...so the spot closest that violation is the endline.

I agree with rockyroad that this is what the violation is, but I disagree with his stating that the closest spot is the endline. What if the try is an airball? The violation occurs prior to the ball striking the floor because the try has already ended. So the ball's location is not at a point on the court near the basket. The ball is still in the air and retains the status of when it last touched a player or when it last contacted the court. I'm going with the nearest OOB spot to where the try was released.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I agree with rockyroad on what the violation is, but I disagree with his stating that the closest spot is the endline. What if the try is an airball? The violation occurs prior to the ball striking the floor because the try has already ended. So the ball's location is not at a point on the court near the basket. The ball is still in the air and retains the status of when it last touched a player or when it last contacted the court. I'm going with the nearest OOB spot to where the try was released.

The rule doesn't say "ball location" it says "location of the violation."

When A1 inbounds the ball and it bounces on the court, then goes OOB untouched, the ball is brought back to the original throw in spot -- because that's the spot of the violation; it doesn't go to the "ball location."