Intentional or Not

[Brick43]

Slo mo is going to ruin my career. Full speed I have no intentional. It looks like he made a play at the ball and attempted to hold up the player. Then slo-mo it looks worse and I change my mind. I wonder what other decisions in my life I would reconsider if I slowed down the tape? Where's that wedding footage.....?

[APG]

Originally Posted by Brick43

Slo mo is going to ruin my career. Full speed I have no intentional. It looks like he made a play at the ball and attempted to hold up the player. Then slo-mo it looks worse and I change my mind. I wonder what other decisions in my life I would reconsider if I slowed down the tape? Where's that wedding footage.....?

Slow motion tends to have that effect...making incidents appear worse than they really were.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Slow motion tends to have that effect...making incidents appear worse than they really were.

Agree. In football we say that slo-mo makes everything look like a foul.

I also agree that this is an intentional foul. Easy call, even in real time.

[bowlingref]

If you let that go, then the next one will only be worse. The IF gets the players attention.

[twocentsworth]

per the criteria the John Adams provided at the NCAA-M level....yep - intentional.

[tref]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

per the criteria the John Adams provided at the NCAA-M level....yep - intentional.

Flagrant 1 this season.

[ref2coach]

"OH MY, Thats a TERRIBLE CALL," by the announcers

I agree with those focusing on the "first line" of the IF rule. IF from me.

[ontheway]

I was taught by My HS V coach that when he says "dont let them score" that means if you have to torch his house, you stop the basket. In his own words " if your gonna foul MAKE SURE HE Misses HIS SHOT" I personally have done the exact play in question. My point is this; you guys are all X'ing him for mugging( which ive done) but you make it sound like him " dragging him down" was an act of malice or that he was violent. watch the video he helps him up and smacks his rear. Theres no "Chesting up" and NOt even an inkling of a potential fight. him holding onto the guy was prolly an act of kindness

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ontheway

I was taught by My HS V coach that when he says "dont let them score" that means if you have to torch his house, you stop the basket. In his own words " if your gonna foul MAKE SURE HE Misses HIS SHOT" I personally have done the exact play in question. My point is this; you guys are all X'ing him for mugging( which ive done) but you make it sound like him " dragging him down" was an act of malice or that he was violent. watch the video he helps him up and smacks his rear. Theres no "Chesting up" and NOt even an inkling of a potential fight. him holding onto the guy was prolly an act of kindness

This is an accepted practice in professional basketball, but not in amateur athletics.

The simple phrase "neutralize an opponent's obvious advantageous position" was created for this exact type of non-play on the ball. This phrase was included because the rules-makers do not want this type of defence in basketball. Period. If you don't like it, get yourself onto the rules committee and petition for a change. Until, you'll have to set your personal opinion aside (most of us have some rule that we don't like) and call the play correctly with an X.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

This is an accepted practice in professional basketball, but not in amateur athletics.

The simple phrase "neutralize an opponent's obvious advantageous position" was created for this exact type of non-play on the ball. This phrase was included because the rules-makers do not want this type of defence in basketball. Period. If you don't like it, get yourself onto the rules committee and petition for a change. Until, you'll have to set your personal opinion aside (most of us have some rule that we don't like) and call the play correctly with an X.

I agree, but I read his post as a rejection of the idea that this might be a flagrant foul. My impression is that most players know that grabbing the opponent and "not playing the ball" is an intentional foul, even if they don't know the exact rules language.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

This is an accepted practice in professional basketball, but not in amateur athletics.

The simple phrase "neutralize an opponent's obvious advantageous position" was created for this exact type of non-play on the ball. This phrase was included because the rules-makers do not want this type of defence in basketball. Period. If you don't like it, get yourself onto the rules committee and petition for a change. Until, you'll have to set your personal opinion aside (most of us have some rule that we don't like) and call the play correctly with an X.

Says who? You cannot take a line in the rule and say that it applies to your personal position either. I have never read anywhere that suggests you cannot foul someone and prevent a score. If that is the case any foul going to the basket would be considered an intentional foul and those are still rare situations.

Peace

[APG]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

This is an accepted practice in professional basketball, but not in amateur athletics.

The simple phrase "neutralize an opponent's obvious advantageous position" was created for this exact type of non-play on the ball. This phrase was included because the rules-makers do not want this type of defence in basketball. Period. If you don't like it, get yourself onto the rules committee and petition for a change. Until, you'll have to set your personal opinion aside (most of us have some rule that we don't like) and call the play correctly with an X.

Do you think there aren't times at the amateur level, where players take a foul to stop an easy basket? There's a right and wrong way to go about it to not make it plain as day that one is trying to foul on purpose to stop a basket. Just because, say for instance, a player fouls a player from behind on a fastbreak where the offensive player is ahead of everyone, doesn't mean it's an automatic intentional foul.

I think that's kind of the point ontheway was trying to get along?

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

This is an accepted practice in professional basketball, but not in amateur athletics.

The simple phrase "neutralize an opponent's obvious advantageous position" was created for this exact type of non-play on the ball. This phrase was included because the rules-makers do not want this type of defence in basketball. Period. If you don't like it, get yourself onto the rules committee and petition for a change. Until, you'll have to set your personal opinion aside (most of us have some rule that we don't like) and call the play correctly with an X.

This is a great post and an absolutely HORRIBLE rule. By that wording yeah I guess that would be ruled an intentional foul, but all player's understand taking a foul to keep the guy from scoring, which is all this player did. That's why I believe the NCAA has instituted the Flagrant fouls system, so that these plays are acceptable. That play in no way should be ruled a FF.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ontheway

but you make it sound like him " dragging him down" was an act of malice or that he was violent. watch the video he helps him up and smacks his rear. Theres no "Chesting up" and NOt even an inkling of a potential fight.

Those actions would (or could) be flagrant (or Flagrant 2 this year in NCAA). No one is suggesting that.

[tref]

Originally Posted by ontheway

...watch the video he helps him up and smacks his rear. Theres no "Chesting up" and NOt even an inkling of a potential fight. him holding onto the guy was prolly an act of kindness

Most smart players think their actions after a "hard foul" may put doubt in the minds of the officials.
His actions removed all doubt whether or not an upgrade to flagrant applies, but it was still intentional.