Violation?

[PGCougar]

Saw this the other night. Made basket, A1 starts to inbound against the press. A2 jumps behind the baseline while A1 passes to A2. But A2 misses the pass and the ball rolls out beyond the plane of the sideline but remained behind the baseline. A2 didn't recover the ball before a five-second violation was called.

It got me thinking (dangerous, I know)... If A2 recovered the ball beyond the sideline boundary extended but got back behind the baseline in time to inbound it, would there have been a violation?

Phil

[Mark Padgett]

We've had this discussion before, and quite recently, if memory serves me (it always serves me - but sometimes it's someone else's memory).

I don't think we ever came to a conclusion on whether the OOB area on the endline extended beyond the sidelines extended or not.

Maybe since then, someone has found a definitive rule on it.

[mick]

I go on the premise that the plane has no finite measurement until it hits the bleachers or walls.

Actually, that's kinda like my strike zone. Nose to toes, dugout to dugout.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by PGCougar
Saw this the other night. Made basket, A1 starts to inbound against the press. A2 jumps behind the baseline while A1 passes to A2. But A2 misses the pass and the ball rolls out beyond the plane of the sideline but remained behind the baseline. A2 didn't recover the ball before a five-second violation was called.

It got me thinking (dangerous, I know)... If A2 recovered the ball beyond the sideline boundary extended but got back behind the baseline in time to inbound it, would there have been a violation?

Phil

By definition the basketball court's boundaries are the two sidelines and the two endlines. A sideline ends where it intersects with an endline and an endline ends where it intersects with a sideline. When a team is entitled to a throw-in after a succesful or awarded field goal or free throw, the ensuing throw-in must be made from behind the endline.

NFHS R7-S5-A7 deals with throw-ins for the above situation. NFHS R7-S6-A1 states that the thrower shall release the ball on a pass directly into the court, except as in R7-S5-A7, within five seconds after the throw-in starts. Directly into the court means that the ball must cross over the boundary line from which that throw-in is being made.

When A1's pass to A2 went past the intersection point of the sideline and the endline, the pass touched out-of-bounds without crossing direct directly into the court. Therefore Team A has committed a throw-in violation. I do not have my NCAA and FIBA rules books in front of me but the ruling would be the same for both NCAA and FIBA rules also.

[mick]

Originally posted by PGCougar

It got me thinking (dangerous, I know)... If A2 recovered the ball beyond the sideline boundary extended but got back behind the baseline in time to inbound it, would there have been a violation?

Phil

Phil,
In lieu of a real rule, I am prepared to judge the last plane penetrated before the ball enters the court.

That is, if the ball is outside the intersection of the planes a ball that crosses the end line plane last is still an end line throw-in.
Likewise, a ball that passes through the sideline plane last would have been an illegal throw-in.
mick

[Adam]

This seems to be a nit-picky view of "directly onto the court." What if, for example, we have a spot throw-in on the baseline about 1 foot from the corner? A1, while attempting to throwing around B1, moves in such a way as to throw the ball across the sideline plane. Doesn't seem like a violation to me.
Can't think of a good reason to call anything but a 5 second voilation here, if it gets that far.

Adam

[Adam]

One more thought, in the absence of a clearly defined violation, I'd be real hesitant to call one. Anything besides "5 seconds" seems far short of being clearly defined here.

Adam

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Ladies and Gentlemen: PLEASE!! READ THE RULES BOOK!!

I will only reference the NFHS rules, but the NCAA Men’s/Women’s and FIBA rules books agree.


R1-S2-A1: The playing court shall be marked with sidelines, end lines and other lines as shown on the appended court diagram.

R4-S41-A1: The thrower is that player who attempts to make a throw-in.

R4-S41-A2: A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.

R4-S41-A5: The throw-in ends when the passed ball touches, or is touched by, an inbounds player other that the thrower.

R7-S5-A7: After a goal or awarded goal as in R7-S4-A3, the team not credited with the score shall make the throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from any point outside the end line. ….. Any player of the team may make a direct throw-in or he/she may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate(s) outside the boundary line.

R7-S6-A1: The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in. The thrower shall release the ball on a pass directly into the court, except as in R7-S5-A7, within five seconds after the throw-in start. The throw-in pass shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched. The throw-in pass shall not touch a teammate while it is on the out-of-bounds side of the throw-in boundary plane.


As I stated in my first post in this thread. The end line ends where it intersects with the sideline and the sideline ends where it intersects with the end line.

Lets look at this play from a new perspective. Instead A1, instead of passing the ball to A2, who is also out-of-bounds behind the end line, A1 runs along the end line until he comes to the point where it intersects with the sideline. A1 then starts to run along the sideline toward his basket and then releases a pass to A3 who is standing inbounds. Has A1 committed a throw-in violation? Of course he has committed a throw-in violation. A1 did not make the throw-in from behind the end line.

Therefore, when A1 legally passed the ball to A2 (who is legally out of bounds), who missed the pass, the ball continued past the point where the end line and sideline intersect while still on the out of bound side of the boundary lines, A1 has committed a throw-in violation because A1’s throw-in pass did not touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.

[BktBallRef]

...even though this play is not specifically addressed in the Rule Book or the Case Book. his interp is a reach, to say the least. But perhaps that's the way it's called in Ohio. A regional thang, ya know!

I got nothin', unless the ball hits something.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
...even though this play is not specifically addressed in the Rule Book or the Case Book. his interp is a reach, to say the least. But perhaps that's the way it's called in Ohio. A regional thang, ya know!

I got nothin', unless the ball hits something.

Since when is applying the rules correctly a "reach?" I used the rules as written to make an interpretation. I agree that the Casebook does not have a play addressing this play specifically, but just apply the rules that are written about throw-ins.

Not to be "nit-picky, but lets look at what Snagwells wrote earlier:

"This seems to be a nit-picky view of "directly onto the court." What if, for example, we have a spot throw-in on the baseline about 1 foot from the corner? A1, while attempting to throwing around B1, moves in such a way as to throw the ball across the sideline plane. Doesn't seem like a violation to me.
Can't think of a good reason to call anything but a 5 second voilation here, if it gets that far."

In Snagwells throw-in scenario above, A1 has committed a throw-in violation by stepping up the sideline. A1's throw-in spot is on the end line and he released the ball from a position along the sideline. The designated spot for A1's throw-in was on the end line and the throw-in was made from a position on the sideline.

I am sorry to offend those who do not use the rules book when making an interpretation, but I was taught to use the rules book (including casebook plays, illustrated rules books, officials handbook, and the basketball handbook) to make my ruling.

[BktBallRef]

We beat this one to death on the NFHS board. Bottom line, there is no definitive asnwer. We can all offer our own interp. but, truth be known, there is no NFHS interp.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I agree that we beat this one to death in the NFHS Discussion Forum. That said, I have supplied all of the rules references that apply to throw-ins, in general, and the specific throw-in situation in this thread. These rules references are the same ones that I referenced in NFHS Discussion Forum.

Just apply the appropriate rules and this play is not a difficult play to officiate.

[BktBallRef]

Yep, and they didn't stand up their either!

[Adam]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Since when is applying the rules correctly a "reach?" I used the rules as written to make an interpretation. I agree that the Casebook does not have a play addressing this play specifically, but just apply the rules that are written about throw-ins.

Not to be "nit-picky, but lets look at what Snagwells wrote earlier:

"This seems to be a nit-picky view of "directly onto the court." What if, for example, we have a spot throw-in on the baseline about 1 foot from the corner? A1, while attempting to throwing around B1, moves in such a way as to throw the ball across the sideline plane. Doesn't seem like a violation to me.
Can't think of a good reason to call anything but a 5 second voilation here, if it gets that far."

In Snagwells throw-in scenario above, A1 has committed a throw-in violation by stepping up the sideline. A1's throw-in spot is on the end line and he released the ball from a position along the sideline. The designated spot for A1's throw-in was on the end line and the throw-in was made from a position on the sideline.

I am sorry to offend those who do not use the rules book when making an interpretation, but I was taught to use the rules book (including casebook plays, illustrated rules books, officials handbook, and the basketball handbook) to make my ruling.

Just a point of clarification, it's SNAQWELLS. I understand it's tough to tell in various fonts, but wanted to set the record straight.
Now, in my scenario, the player need not step anywhere. It's a throw in spot within about 18 inches of the corner. Technically, he's released the ball from a spot outside the corner. His hand is, by your definition, outside the playing court; yet his feet are still within the 3 foot spot for the throw-in.
I'm looking at the rules you're giving, here, Mark. I see what you're saying. I just disagree. That doesn't mean I'm ignoring the rule book. I'm not going to call a violation unless there's a clear rule defining it. If you want me to call it (I know you don't care how I officiate, I'm just making a point), get the rule cleared up. Until then....

Adam

[Nevadaref]

MTD,
I have a problem with your definition of a throw-in pass. I do not consider the OOB pass from A1 to A2 that subsequently gets away past the sideline to be a throw-in pass. Therefore, this pass is not subject to the restrictions set forth in the throw-in rules. Specifically, the provision about having to go directly into the court does not apply to this pass.
Likewise, if we are playing in a gym with lots of room between the endline and the back wall, if A1 tried to pass the ball to A2 who was standing several feet behind A1 and the pass was missed and never touched, I do not believe that this is a violation either. Team A still has whatever time remains of the five seconds to run down the ball and release it on a throw-in pass directly into the court.
Now I do agree with your statements on where the sidelines and the endlines end. I just think that even if the ball passes the plane of the sideline while OOB the throw-in team may still retreive it and complete a throw-in pass before the five seconds expire.
I believe that we must precisely state what we consider to be BEHIND the endline, in order to discuss this play further.