People Skills...

[dblref]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Juulie is correct on many angles. I do speak in ways that many that are not of my community or in my situation would not understand. I do see the interpretions being lost in what I say because they do not come from my region or point of view. Sometimes it is done on purpose, other times it is not. I am who I am. I am not going to stop being that because I am an official. Because when officials that are Black talk amongs each other, we do tend to address issues and concerns that we might not have with fellow white officials. That part is very true. And if that scares people or bothers people, then that is something they are going to just have to deal with.

Peace

Rut, it is interesting to note that Juulie (who I think is white and married to a black man) never capitalized black or white, but you stated "Black official" and "white official". Is this one of the things that you "do on purpose"? It appears to be a put down.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Dodging what?

Jeff, please don't play dumb, ok? It doesn't become you. I know you're not stupid, and I know you can read. So I also know that must be aware of the request (triple-dog dare) that I've made several times. If you don't want to admit that you were wrong, due to stubbornness or lack of courage, fine. But don't insult my intelligence by pretending.

I never claimed what anyone said something specifically.

Jeff, again, here is the exact quote from your first post in this thread:

we have people on this board that think your test score is the determiner of what officiating is all about.

That is a specific claim. At least one person here thinks that a test score determines the value of an official. That's your claim (or fairly close to it). Did you ascribe this to a particular individual? No. That is, however, irrelevant. All I have asked you to do is to provide some evidence that your statement is true, other than your above-stated claim.

In any intellectual or scientific dialogue, a person who asserts that something is true is expected by his audience to present evidence or support for his assertions. You went to college and graduated with a bachelor's degree (if I recall correctly), so you must know how to present a case and support it. That's all I've asked you to do. Present one single, solitary post in which someone states that a person's test score is completely indicative of that person's officiating ability. If you can't or won't support the claims you've made on this topic, then I again ask (respectfully, this time) that you stop making those claims.

Take the comments for what they are worth

As of now, Jeff, they're worth nothing. I believe them to be totally false, and you've done nothing to change my view on that. If you would find the courage to admit that your comments were incorrect, and if you were to say that you would not make these comments anymore, I believe the respect for you among members of this board would grow immensely. You've said in the past that you don't care about that; nevertheless, I think it's true.

So once again I'll ask; can you offer any support whatsoever for the claim that I quoted above? If not, will you then admit you were wrong? Stop dodging and answer those two simple questions.

Chuck

[Rich]

Funny. I've worked with black officials (quite a few in New Orleans), and I've never talked with other white officials about anything other than whether I think the officials are skilled.

I'm naive I guess, but I don't care if my partner is black or white, male or female. I just want to know they have my back.

Rich

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by rainmaker


I disagree. I think it's at least possible that Jeff, Chuck, Tony and the others are mature enough and educated enough (with the possible exception of Padgett)

So are you saying Padgett isn't very educated, isn't very mature, or isn't very much of either one? I think he passed the Oregon state Wedgie Test, didn't he???

[Jeremy Hohn]

Some of the best lines in this subject have already been stated, but one of the best tips I have heard of to deal with people skills are to be approachable, fair, and when giving a "T" it is always business, never personal. I have had coaches come and apologize to me after games after they have recieved techs because they know that I only use that as a last resort, and that I have already exhausted every other means necessary to resolve the problem.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rockyroad
[/B]

So are you saying Padgett isn't very educated, isn't very mature, or isn't very much of either one? I think he passed the Oregon state Wedgie Test, didn't he??? [/B][/QUOTE]Personally,I think Mark is never anything but a class act!

[ronald]

Rainmaker:

I have to disagree with you about Jeff communicating in black. I have yet to read one of his posts where "black speech patterns and syntax" are in his posts. If you were to give his paragraphs to people that did not know his "race", I have no doubt that 99% of the people would say that is "white English". It is only after Jeff explicitly tells us and from some of his posts that one would gather he is black.

Jeff's language and prose is one of an educated speaker; he knows what side the bread is buttered on. Furthermore, compare how Jeff talks through his writing with the hosts of Soul Train or an award's programs for black entertainers. Those speakers speak "black". Then compare that with how Cornell West speaks at seminars and how he writes. You'll find that Jeff's is much closer to Cornell West and that that language is considered the 'standard english language' required to succeed in the professional world. That is the 'English' Jeff is using.

[Jeremy Hohn]

Heck, reading Jeff's posts, I never would have ventured to surmise his race either way. I have always found his posts articulate and accurate.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ronald

You'll find that Jeff's is much closer to Cornell West and that that language is considered the 'standard english language' required to succeed in the professional world. That is the 'English' Jeff is using.

This is facsinating. But even Cornell West speaks in a very Afrosentric tone and speech pattern. It is just that Cornel West or Ron Karenga speak in ways that are very Afronsentric as well as being very educated. I would not call that "speaking Black," even thought I do not know what that is, but I do tend to speak in meanings that are not easily indentified if you are not used to being around folks that look me.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Jeff, please don't play dumb, ok? It doesn't become you. I know you're not stupid, and I know you can read. So I also know that must be aware of the request (triple-dog dare) that I've made several times. If you don't want to admit that you were wrong, due to stubbornness or lack of courage, fine. But don't insult my intelligence by pretending.

I did not listen to triple dog dares when I was a shortee, I do not listen to them while I am in my 30s.

I never claimed what anyone said something specifically.

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Jeff, again, here is the exact quote from your first post in this thread:

I did not say Tony said it or even JR said it or Mick. So for me to claim something specifically, I would have to point someone out.

we have people on this board that think your test score is the determiner of what officiating is all about.

Originally posted by ChuckElias

That is a specific claim. At least one person here thinks that a test score determines the value of an official. That's your claim (or fairly close to it). Did you ascribe this to a particular individual? No. That is, however, irrelevant. All I have asked you to do is to provide some evidence that your statement is true, other than your above-stated claim.

I do think there are people that feel that way. They bring that to light by the way they have disagreed with or mocked the "presence vs. rules" discussion and taken opposition with me personally. Of course there are individuals that feel that way. Just because they did not use the exact words does not mean it is not true. I guess George Bush has to come out and say this war is only about oil for you to believe that too.

Originally posted by ChuckElias

In any intellectual or scientific dialogue, a person who asserts that something is true is expected by his audience to present evidence or support for his assertions. You went to college and graduated with a bachelor's degree (if I recall correctly), so you must know how to present a case and support it. That's all I've asked you to do. Present one single, solitary post in which someone states that a person's test score is completely indicative of that person's officiating ability. If you can't or won't support the claims you've made on this topic, then I again ask (respectfully, this time) that you stop making those claims..

In most intellectual or scientific dialogues that I have been a party to, do not give specific, undeniable evidence to back up a point. Most of the time it is opinion and analysis. That is what I did, that is what I stand by. People do it all the time about my personal beliefs and personal opinions and I do not see you and others asking for proof to those claims. Like the captialization of "Black." I explained that years ago and folks are still trying to say it has another meaning. Well ya know, they have that right to believe that. Because the word "Black" discribes a race and ethnicity of a group of people that "white" does not. It is used differently in politics, social issues and scientific study. But there will still be people that think I am doing the Eddie Murphy skit on SNL when talking about these issues.

Take the comments for what they are worth

Originally posted by ChuckElias

As of now, Jeff, they're worth nothing. I believe them to be totally false, and you've done nothing to change my view on that. If you would find the courage to admit that your comments were incorrect, and if you were to say that you would not make these comments anymore, I believe the respect for you among members of this board would grow immensely. You've said in the past that you don't care about that; nevertheless, I think it's true.

I am not incorrect at all. Because you do not believe that anyone feels that way, I do. It is called an opinion and I stand by it. You do not have to say something in order for the proof to be there. Actions speak louder than words, even thought it is difficut to see actions here, but when I see the same people giving the same argument toward anything, they must feel a certain way.

Originally posted by ChuckElias

So once again I'll ask; can you offer any support whatsoever for the claim that I quoted above? If not, will you then admit you were wrong? Stop dodging and answer those two simple questions.

Chuck

When you ask for the same evidence when folks say what they say about me. When you require others to "back up" their claims they make about others, then I will think about showing you specifics. But the reality is that all you have to do is stick around and read the opposition. It will come out. It will manifest itself. Just pay attention and you will see for yourself if you are truely open minded about it. Tony calls me liar every other post, but does not seem to know what that means. Because in order to lie, you have to be telling something the opposite of the truth knowingly. And when we are talking about opinions and different views on the facts, I can hardly be a liar when we do not agree on what the facts are.

Peace

[ronald]

Jeff,

I'd have to say the only time I have heard Cornell is on C-span where I believed the setting to be a seminar type one. Might not be the best word for the setting. Nevertheless, I never found his speech patterns or tones to be afrocentric. I considered them as standard as the next guy who was speaking. Limited viewings.

I have never heard you speak but if you speak the way you write, I characterize that as standard English used in the academic and professional world. Your thoughts, at times, have an 'afrocentric' viewpoint but the syntax and semantics, and your written register are standard English as far as I can see. Plus your rhetorical style is associated with the western european-greco world.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by dblref
Rut, it is interesting to note that Juulie (who I think is white and married to a black man) never capitalized black or white, but you stated "Black official" and "white official". Is this one of the things that you "do on purpose"? It appears to be a put down.

Just for the record, I'm not married to a black man. My daughter is black, and she is adopted. My "borned" children are blonde haird and blue eyed.

The part about capitalizing and not-capitalizing is one thing about educated black English that whites may not understand, and your reaction to it "it appears to be a put down" proves my point. We whites simply don't always understand what is being said. Jeff doesn't do that because he wants to obfuscate, he's just trying to have a discussion. Just like you are, dblref.

I think we should lay the whole thing to rest. Jeff, could you trust me enough to agree that perhaps no one really meant that rules-knowledge is the only important thing, if I can talk Chuck and Tony into agreeing that perhaps you see value in both the rules-knowledge and the court presence? One of my dreams in life has been to be a mediator in race relation problems. Could I have the chance to practice here?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ronald
Jeff,

I'd have to say the only time I have heard Cornell is on C-span where I believed the setting to be a seminar type one. Might not be the best word for the setting. Nevertheless, I never found his speech patterns or tones to be afrocentric. I considered them as standard as the next guy who was speaking. Limited viewings.

I have never heard you speak but if you speak the way you write, I characterize that as standard English used in the academic and professional world. Your thoughts, at times, have an 'afrocentric' viewpoint but the syntax and semantics, and your written register are standard English as far as I can see. Plus your rhetorical style is associated with the western european-greco world.

Ron,

I am not talking about using standard English or not using standard English. When I state that Cornel West talks in an Afrocentric tone, I am talking about the meanings behind what he is saying. The way that he and others talk to the audience that is in front of him. I have seen Cornel West speak several times and have met the man after he wrote the book "Race Matters." He talks in a way, not unlike other African-American intellectuals to the audience that is in front of him. W.E.B Du Buois wrote about the "Dual Consciousness of Black People," which basically states that Blacks depending on who is around them, the speak differently and use different meanings for similar words and speech patterns. But really this is a bigger issue than can really be discussed here. I just agree with what Juulie's point was at the beginning. For whatever her personal situation is, she picked up on something that I have noticed for a long time. But that is why she is great.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rainmaker


I think we should lay the whole thing to rest. Jeff, could you trust me enough to agree that perhaps no one really meant that rules-knowledge is the only important thing, if I can talk Chuck and Tony into agreeing that perhaps you see value in both the rules-knowledge and the court presence? One of my dreams in life has been to be a mediator in race relation problems. Could I have the chance to practice here?

Maybe the words did not come out that way, but that has been suggested by many posts against things I have stated. I think we are simplifying the issue way too much anyway. Officiating is not about two issues. Rules knowledge to me has many different elements to it than just knowing a rule. Court Presence has many different elements. And there is much more to becoming a good or great official than those two elements. Neither element has to do with your fitness, floor mechanics or positions just to name a few or even people skills. This is why you will never see me saying someone is a bad official by an opinion expressed here. Kind of hard to judge that without seeing if that individual can get up and down a court. But I guess that is just me.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge
One of the main reasons it is not defined is because we have people on this board that think your test score is the determiner of what officiating is all about.

In your humble opinion, please tell us who you think these people are. You've made the statement. If you feel this strongly about it, please expound on it and tell us who you're speaking of. Or are you unwilling to do that because your statement is just BS?