10-1-6 Administration ???

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If he was on the floor while the ball was dead before it was at B's disposal, then he was participating prior to that when the shot was made. Technical foul.

BktBallRef: Thanks for posting. So I guess you're saying that Nevadaref's citation that the player "will not actually participate until the ball becomes live" doesn't fit Situation G?

How about Situation C? It appears that A6 was "on the floor (and) was participating prior to that when the" violation occurred? Your words in quotes. The only difference here is that the clock is stopped.

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

[BillyMac]

Only two replies (Thanks Nevadaref and BktBallRef) in a week? Rajon Rondo dunks, and ends up sitting on some guy's shoulders, and we get 156 spirited replies in a month.

All I'm asking for is how an official administers a six players in the game situation, according to the rule as written. To me, the lack of response indicates that either these situations are so easy to administer that you guys can't believe that I'm asking such a silly question; or, these situations are not adequately covered by the present wording of the rule, and thus, although many of you may have an opinion on these plays, you might not have any written citations to back up your interpretation. Which is it?

I'm was really hoping that some esteemed members out there in Forum-Land, maybe those of you who may act as interpreters in your local association, could come up with some "official" interpretations for the plays that I described. If there are six team members participating, does it matter whether, or not, the ball is dead, live, clock running, clock not running, or if there is, or isn't, a timeout (not an intermission)? What defines whether, or not, a player is participating in the plays I have described above?

[bob jenkins]

My take: It's noticed while the game "is going on." So, I suppose that means either the ball is live, or the clock is running (or both). In the case play where the TO was called, neither is true, so the team isn't in violation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If there are six team members participating, does it matter whether, or not, the ball is dead, live, clock running, clock not running, or if there is, or isn't, a timeout (not an intermission)? What defines whether, or not, a player is participating in the plays I have described above?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's noticed while the game "is going on." So, I suppose that means either the ball is live, or the clock is running (or both). In the case play where the TO was called, neither is true, so the team isn't in violation.

Thanks bob jenkins. So in six of the seven situations that I described, you would call a technical foul? The only situation in which you wouldn't would be in Situation A, where a timeout is requested and granted:

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

Live ball and/or clock running? Sounds good. How about some dead ball, clock stopped situations that do not involve a timeout being "called":

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

[Adam]

Billy, I think part of your problem is that you're looking for some easy to box list of criteria by which to rule this. It's just not there.

I'll call the T in E, F, and G. Not the rest, though, as it wasn't noticed by the officials while the game was going on. IOW, they weren't "participating" when the officials noticed the sixth player.

[bainsey]

I think we're making this more difficult than it really is.

*If the point of illegal participation is when the ball becomes live, and there are six or more "players" on the court, and
*It is penalized when it's discovered by the officials (how it's discovered isn't relevant) when it's being violated,

then we have a T in sitches B-G. The only reason I don't have one in A, is because as soon as that time out is granted, everyone on the floor is bench personnel, and it's hard for bench personnel to participate.

It seems to me that, the big question is, when does participation actually end?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bainsey

As soon as that time out is granted, everyone on the floor is bench personnel.

Are you sure?

2010-11 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES CHANGES
During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.

4-34 PLAYERS/BENCH PERSONNEL/SUBSTITUTES/TEAM MEMBERS
ART. 1 . A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court
at any given time, except intermission.
ART. 2 . Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with
a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and
statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for
the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I think we're making this more difficult than it really is.

Thanks for the reply bainsey. One correction: I'm the one making this more difficult than it really is.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'll call the T in E, F, and G. Not the rest, though, as it wasn't noticed by the officials while the game was going on.

Thanks Snaqwells. So the game isn't "going on" here (especially Situation D):

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

BktBallRef: Thanks for posting. So I guess you're saying that Nevadaref's citation that the player "will not actually participate until the ball becomes live" doesn't fit Situation G?

How about Situation C? It appears that A6 was "on the floor (and) was participating prior to that when the" violation occurred? Your words in quotes. The only difference here is that the clock is stopped.

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

I have no interest in reading all those scenarios again, just to satisfy your curiosity. It's simple:

6 players come onto the floor. Until the ball is put in play, it's not live and he can leave without penalty. Once the ball becomes live, the live ball requirement has been satsfied and the team is at risk of a technical foul. It makes no difference how many more time it becomes dead/live before discovered. If either team gets a timeout and get #6 off the floor, then they can avoid the penalty. Otherwise, if it's discovered during the interim, it's a T.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Once the ball becomes live, the live ball requirement has been satsfied and the team is at risk of a technical foul. It makes no difference how many more time it becomes dead/live before discovered. If either team gets a timeout and get #6 off the floor, then they can avoid the penalty. Otherwise, if it's discovered during the interim, it's a T.

Now this has a nice ring to it. Sounds fair. Sounds like it fits the spirit and purpose of the rule. If only the rule were worded that way?