T foul administration

[Josh Ovens]

in pregram warmups, Team A is on the court doing layups. As this is occuring A1 dunks the ball through the hoop.
i just want to make sure i have this correct. A1 is given a T , which is recorded under a personal and a team foul. you would start the game with 2 shot and the ball for team B, then after team B completes the throw in, the AP is set towards team A's basket.

A coach records all of his players in the book prior to the 10 min mark. in doing so, he makes a change in the book to three players. he is only charged with 1 T in this situation. it only gets recorded under the team fouls, and is NOT indirect to the coach. if the game had already started, his team would have been charged 3 Ts and and they are personal fouls recorded on A5,A6,A7 correct? as well as being recorded under the team fouls towards the bonus.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Josh Ovens
in pregram warmups, Team A is on the court doing layups. As this is occuring A1 dunks the ball through the hoop.
i just want to make sure i have this correct. A1 is given a T , which is recorded under a personal and a team foul. you would start the game with 2 shot and the ball for team B, then after team B completes the throw in, the AP is set towards team A's basket.

A coach records all of his players in the book prior to the 10 min mark. in doing so, he makes a change in the book to three players. he is only charged with 1 T in this situation. it only gets recorded under the team fouls, and is NOT indirect to the coach. if the game had already started, his team would have been charged 3 Ts and and they are personal fouls recorded on A5,A6,A7 correct? as well as being recorded under the team fouls towards the bonus.

1)On the dunk by A1 in warm up,A1 get's charged with a direct T(not a personal);the head coach of A gets charged with an indirect T and is subsequently seat-belted,the direct T to A1 is charged towards the bonus,team B gets 2 FT's and the throw-in to start the game-then A gets the arrow. Rule 10-3-5 plus Penalty.
2)In the 2nd. case,the coach or players do not get charged with a T,either direct or indirect.The T is charged to the team only and it also counts toward the bonus.Only one T is charged despite the total number of numbers that have to be changed.You have 2 FT's by B,they get the throw-in,and then A will get the arrow.If the changes are made before the game starts,and they aren't discovered until the ball becomes alive to start the game,it is now too late to call the T.This is almost exactly the same procedure as changing numbers after the game starts.One T maximum charged to the team and not the player(s),no indirect T to the head coach,one foul counting towards the bonus,2 FT's awarded for the T,BUT the arrow doesn't change. Rule 10-2 plus penalty.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

2)the coach or players do not get charged with a T,either direct or indirect.The T is charged to the team only and it also counts toward the bonus.Only one T is charged despite the total number of numbers that have to be changed.

Unless, of course, the change took place prior to the 10 minute mark, correct? If all the information is submitted and correct at the 10 minute mark, we don't care what changes were made prior to that, do we? The above situation sounds like everything was done before the 10 minute mark to me. But maybe I'm misinterpreting the situation.

Chuck

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
[/B]

Unless, of course, the change took place prior to the 10 minute mark, correct? If all the information is submitted and correct at the 10 minute mark, we don't care what changes were made prior to that, do we? The above situation sounds like everything was done before the 10 minute mark to me. But maybe I'm misinterpreting the situation.
[/B][/QUOTE]Nah,if anyone misinterpreted it,it was me.I assumed that Josh was talking about changing 3 numbers after the 10 minute mark.His language and my assumption don't really jive if he wasn't talking about that.

Good catch,Chuck.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 26th, 2003 at 04:24 PM]

[Nevadaref]

Chuck, I was confused by that part too. I think that JR correctly interpreted what the questioner wanted answered, but it was written in an odd manner.

Also in case #1 the arrow is set when the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower for the throw-in, not after it ends.

[Lotto]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

1)On the dunk by A1 in warm up,A1 get's charged with a direct T(not a personal);the head coach of A gets charged with an indirect T and is subsequently seat-belted,the direct T to A1 is charged towards the bonus,team B gets 2 FT's and the throw-in to start the game-then A gets the arrow. Rule 10-3-5 plus Penalty.

I don't know NF rules, but in NCAA this is an indirect T and would not get charged to the coach, towards the bonus, or towards the player's total for disqualification.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I don't know NF rules, but in NCAA this is an indirect T and would not get charged to the coach, towards the bonus, or towards the player's total for disqualification. [/B]

It doesn't get charged towards the five total needed for disqualification,but the indirect T does count as one of the 3 T's in combo(2 indirect/1 direct or 3 indirect) needed for ejection in NCAA,doesn't it? [/B][/QUOTE]

[Lotto]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I don't know NF rules, but in NCAA this is an indirect T and would not get charged to the coach, towards the bonus, or towards the player's total for disqualification. [/B]

It doesn't get charged towards the five total needed for disqualification,but the indirect T does count as one of the 3 T's in combo(2 indirect/1 direct or 3 indirect) needed for disqualification in NCAA,doesn't it? [/B][/QUOTE]

My bad...it does count towards the 3 Ts in combo for DQ, but not towards the 5 personal founls for DQ.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Did I miss something?

Maybe I'm getting confused with the TWO separate scenarios.

The direct T to the player for dunking DOES count toward his 5 for disqualification.... correct?

A single, pregame, dunking offense is recorded and administered as:

• Player T and towards the player's 5 allowed before disqualification
• Indirect to the coach and towards his disqualification.
• Team foul towards the bonus situation
• Two shots and the ball at division line for the non-offending team
• Arrow to the dunking team

Please correct me if I m wrong.

[ChuckElias]

Under Fed rules, you are exactly correct, DT TonyB

Chuck

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

Maybe I'm getting confused with the TWO separate scenarios.

Same scenario,but two different rulesets-NFHS and NCAA.Lotto is talking about NCAA rules.As Chuck said,you're completely right for NFHS rules,Tony.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Under Fed rules, you are exactly correct, DT TonyB

Chuck

Yeah - that difference made for a fun weekend - the one NCAA rule (at least for timing/scoring) on which I get the most confused is the whole indirect technical deal. A player was charged an indirect T for hanging on the rim after the shot. I asked the official if that would be charged toward the 5 for DQ and he said yes. I also confirmed that it would not be counted toward the team bonus.

The announcer indicated that it was that players second foul, causing the coach to go nuts. The ref then came over and corrected the situation (although it did take me until halftime to get the official stats corrected - which pissed off the home team when I told them that the player only had 1 foul).

Any good ways to know what's what for direct/indirect T's??

[Josh Ovens]

Originally posted by Josh Ovens


A coach records all of his players in the book prior to the 10 min mark. in doing so, he makes a change in the book to three players. he is only charged with 1 T in this situation. it only gets recorded under the team fouls, and is NOT indirect to the coach. if the game had already started, his team would have been charged 3 Ts and and they are personal fouls recorded on A5,A6,A7 correct? as well as being recorded under the team fouls towards the bonus.

i meant to say the coach changes the book after the game started, does he still get a T assessed to each player for the change?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Josh Ovens
[/B]

i meant to say the coach changes the book after the game started, does he still get a T assessed to each player for the change? [/B][/QUOTE]Josh,any changes or additions to the scorebook are a TEAM technical foul only.Two shots to the other team,plus the ball at center.They are never charged to an individual player,or to the coach.The coach doesn't get an indirect T,either,so he doesn't end up getting seat-belted.You can also only charge one team T maximum per game for scorer's changes or additions.Once a team has received that T,whether it was pre-game or during the game,they are not penalized again if they have to make any further scorebook changes or additions.Covered in rule 10-1-2 plus Penalty at the end of R10-1.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
the one NCAA rule (at least for timing/scoring) on which I get the most confused is the whole indirect technical deal.. . .Any good ways to know what's what for direct/indirect T's??

Mark, I had an indirect T last week when the defender reached through the boundary and slapped the ball out of the inbounders hand. I went to the table (all the way to the table) but the scorer just had no idea what I was talking about. So you're not alone It took me a while to explain. No, it doesn't count toward disqualification; no, it's doesn't count toward the bonus; yes, it's a technical, but he gets three of these, instead of only two.

Indirect technicals are basically anything that is not unsportsmanlike. Anything that's administrative, any of the pre-game crap (dunking, etc), any kind of delay, any uniform issues, any fan issues.

By the way, how did you end up recording the indirect T in the scorebook? A little "I" in the box for the technical?

Chuck