Travel??? while OOB

[Buckley11]

Sorry Cameron Rust....missed your post....Sweeping of the hand is indeed the correct signal....thanks for waking me up

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref

IMO NO because until anyone of us gets there and has to sell a call such of this in front of a national TV audience we have no place questioning the use of this call in this sitch. I have already stated for previously stated reasons that this signal is not acceptable in lower level situations.

Exactly.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Buckley11
I think I have read this whole thread and I must admit I am having a brain cramp........WHAT IS THE PROPER SIGNAL FOR THIS VIOLATION......

Just hoping to get something constructive from this thread.....

It's signal #21 in the 2002-03 rules book (page 75). It is not in the currect officials manual. It appears it was indavertantly dropped.

To describe it...

Point to the designated spot with a single finger and sweep the hand away from the spot.

Simple and descriptive: that's the spot and the player left it.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by Buckley11
I think I have read this whole thread and I must admit I am having a brain cramp........WHAT IS THE PROPER SIGNAL FOR THIS VIOLATION......

Just hoping to get something constructive from this thread.....

Another poster described it as sweeping motion of the arm, along the line in question.

I can't believe the nit-picking here, though.

NCAA Division I and even NBA refs use all kinds of signals, many of them not mentioned in any mechanics book. The top level refs are there because they generally make great calls, have great game management, and experience.

I doubt VERY MUCH if anyone, including the evaluator, mentioned the "improper signal" other than in passing. I do not doubt, however, that he was complimented for making the right call under such frenetic conditions.

While the points expressed are valid to a certain degree, I think it's incredibly silly to be picking apart MINOR details of an official's work.

This board should not be used in this way.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
IMO NO because until anyone of us gets there and has to sell a call such of this in front of a national TV audience we have no place questioning the use of this call in this sitch. I have already stated for previously stated reasons that this signal is not acceptable in lower level situations. [/B]

OK, so let me make sure I understand. Once you get to D-1, we can't question anything (even if it's wrong by the book) because you've now "made it?" D-1 refs are now untouchable? So if a D-1 official calls a travel while the player has no control, that's OK because it's a D-1 game? If a D-1 official calls a travel when a player catches their own airball, that's OK and they don't have to pay Tony their $5.00? I wouldn't dream of questioning a judgement call, but in this case, it appears from the signal given that this official is demonstrating a lack of rule knowledge. When I evaluate an official for our association, I would correct a young official for this incorrect signal. Can't I expect the same from a D-1 ref?

Z

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by zebraman


OK, so let me make sure I understand. Once you get to D-1, we can't question anything (even if it's wrong by the book) because you've now "made it?" D-1 refs are now untouchable? So if a D-1 official calls a travel while the player has no control, that's OK because it's a D-1 game? If a D-1 official calls a travel when a player catches their own airball, that's OK and they don't have to pay Tony their $5.00? I wouldn't dream of questioning a judgement call, but in this case, it appears from the signal given that this official is demonstrating a lack of rule knowledge. When I evaluate an official for our association, I would correct a young official for this incorrect signal. Can't I expect the same from a D-1 ref?

Z [/B]

I've already explained why I think this official made the call such as he did; as well as explaining that i DO NOT APPROVE of usinf this mechanic in most all situations. Yes I would correct a younger official and expect myself to use the correct mechanic in this situation. I simply have a lot of respect for officials who have reached this level and think nitpicking a signal used to convey a very tense situation as a gross violation of officiating mechanics petty at best. To say that the offical did not know the correct signal is simply absurd. I have meat several D1 officials and their rules and mechanics knowledge is top notch. That official sold a call to millions of people. I never once said officials are untouchable at any level.
Keep in mind basketball officals do not have the luxury of football officials to turn on a mike and explain the results of the play and the reason for the penalization. They need to make a series of clear distinct signals to describe their reasoning and actions in a manner of seconds. That official did that. Praise him for making a great call in a pressure situation, not expanding a mechanic that is not 100% correct as it appears on a piece of paper. I'm sure as we all advance in our officiating careers we NEVER use an incorrect signal to convey what happened nor do we elasticize the rules to the style of play. If everything we do as officials has to be 100% as it is written in a mechanics manual I sincerely doubt we would ever make it out of middle school ball.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy


Another poster described it as sweeping motion of the arm, along the line in question.

I can't believe the nit-picking here, though.

NCAA Division I and even NBA refs use all kinds of signals, many of them not mentioned in any mechanics book. The top level refs are there because they generally make great calls, have great game management, and experience.

I doubt VERY MUCH if anyone, including the evaluator, mentioned the "improper signal" other than in passing. I do not doubt, however, that he was complimented for making the right call under such frenetic conditions.

While the points expressed are valid to a certain degree, I think it's incredibly silly to be picking apart MINOR details of an official's work.

This board should not be used in this way. [/B]

AMEN

[twoblindrefs]

I love listening (reading) to the various opinions on proper mechanics vs game administration. Those stating that D1 officials should know the fundamental rules are correct. Those stating that D1 officials need to be great game managers are also correct. The point being missed by rookie and vet alike.....those at the top should be doing it the correct way so that those trying to get there follow good examples.

This same arguement can be found in the college officials who come down and work a high school game on an off night. How many times are they being watched by and up-and-coming JV official who think that the varsity refs must be doing it right because they are there......only to be told that the two college refs are using college mechanics...and not what they should be doing!

Just my 2 cents.....

[Peter Devana]

I Have read most of the replies to this post and have to agree that the ref did a great job in having the strength to make the call and communicating it clearly to everyone in question. Obviously he is a good communicator and has rthe strength to make the tough call. These are 2 attributes that evaluators look for when considering officials for that high level.
I'm really curtous as to how the poster, Navedaref would have handled the same situation?????
Pistol

[rockyroad]

I had a game the other night where the offensive post player was hooking the defender as she posted up, very effectively pinning the defender in place and getting an easy post entry pass...I called the team control foul (NCAA rules) and proceeded to clear the players and report to the table...in reporting, I gave the color and number, showed the proper hold signal, AND THEN added a hooking motion with my arm...absolutely NOT the proper signal, and not found in the book, but the coach - who was at the far end and standing there with the "What'd she do?" look - turned to the post player, told her to stop hooking, and sat down...sometimes the signals we use communicate quite clearly - even though we know they aren't the "correct" signal...

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rockyroad
I had a game the other night where the offensive post player was hooking the defender as she posted up, very effectively pinning the defender in place and getting an easy post entry pass...I called the team control foul (NCAA rules) and proceeded to clear the players and report to the table...in reporting, I gave the color and number, showed the proper hold signal, AND THEN added a hooking motion with my arm...

I am shocked! Shocked I tell you!

[Rich]

I like the punch and the "walk-and-talk." They also describe the times the lead should work wide and work tight to the lane extremely well. Concepts that carry-over to 2-official mechanics, I think.

I like the men's coverage areas better. I like how in the men's manual the lead has no 3-point responsibility. But the men's manual is mostly pictures, whereas the women's manual actually puts words to the mechanics and seems to be trying to teach.

One difference: The women's manual says that it is perfectly acceptable to say "on the floor." The men's manual says you should NEVER say it.

Rich

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by rockyroad
I had a game the other night where the offensive post player was hooking the defender as she posted up, very effectively pinning the defender in place and getting an easy post entry pass...I called the team control foul (NCAA rules) and proceeded to clear the players and report to the table...in reporting, I gave the color and number, showed the proper hold signal, AND THEN added a hooking motion with my arm...absolutely NOT the proper signal, and not found in the book, but the coach - who was at the far end and standing there with the "What'd she do?" look - turned to the post player, told her to stop hooking, and sat down...sometimes the signals we use communicate quite clearly - even though we know they aren't the "correct" signal...

And I'm sure you had no idea of the rule since you used a "non-approved" signal
The coach sure understood what you meant though. In fact he fell for it HOOK, line and sinker.
(sorry guys... that was bad...)

[zebraman]

I have meat several D1 officials and their rules and mechanics knowledge is top notch.

I did a varsity 4A boys game with a guy who does D-1 ball about a month ago. I'm trail coming out of backcourt. Player with ball picks up dribble, loses balance a little and touches the ball to the floor without moving either foot. At halftime, this official asks me why I didn't call it a travel. I explain that it's legal. D-1 official says, "we've been calling that a travel for 15 years - it's not legal." I get out my book and prove him wrong. He apologizes and tells me that he doesn't read the rules books anymore because he pretty much has the rules memorized from all his years of experience. I no longer assume that all D-1 officials have great rule knowledge.

Z

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by rockyroad
I had a game the other night where the offensive post player was hooking the defender as she posted up, very effectively pinning the defender in place and getting an easy post entry pass...I called the team control foul (NCAA rules) and proceeded to clear the players and report to the table...in reporting, I gave the color and number, showed the proper hold signal, AND THEN added a hooking motion with my arm...absolutely NOT the proper signal, and not found in the book, but the coach - who was at the far end and standing there with the "What'd she do?" look - turned to the post player, told her to stop hooking, and sat down...sometimes the signals we use communicate quite clearly - even though we know they aren't the "correct" signal...

I wholeheartedly agree with the use of extra signals in this manner to communicate specifics. I simply oppose the use of a signal that communicates the wrong thing...that it was traveling.