Happened last night

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Time running down in 3rd quarter HS boys Varsity game. A1 drives to basket and dunks just as time expires. I count basket. A1 then procedes to do a pull up on rim. Technical foul called. The question is, are the free throws administered as an extension of the third quarter and then we go to the arrow to start the fourth; or do the tech throws start the 4th quarter w/B then getting the ball at half court. Remember the ball is dead when it passes through the basket and the quarter had expired when the T was whistled.

[Edited by MN 3 Sport Ref on Jan 10th, 2003 at 10:50 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
Time running down in 3rd quarter HS boys Varsity game. A1 drives to basket and dunks just as time expires. I count basket. A1 then procedes to do a pull up on rim. Technical foul called. The question is, are the free throws administered as an extension of the third quarter and then we go to the area to start the fourth; or do the tech throws start the 4th quarter w/ B then getting the ball at half court. Remember the ball is dead when it passes through the basket and the quarter had expired when the T was whistled.

The "act of shooting" doesn't end until the shooter hits the floor.Therefore,the act of hanging on the rim is part of the 3rd. quarter.Fourth quarter starts with the AP.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

The "act of shooting" doesn't end until the shooter hits the floor.Therefore,the act of hanging on the rim is part of the 3rd. quarter.Fourth quarter starts with the AP.

JR: I don't think that is correct: Reading rule 5-6-4, I think we start the the 4th with the tech throws.

5-6-4 states: If a tech foul occurs after the ball has become dead (it did when it went through the hoop 6-7-1) to end a period, The next quarter is started w/ the administering of the free throws. This as long as the free throws have no affect on the playing of an extra period. (didn't it was the end of the third)

[Edited by MN 3 Sport Ref on Jan 10th, 2003 at 11:30 AM]

[mnref14]

Somebody down in your neck of the woods dunked in a High School game? It must of been that 7-footer from Rochester!!! I'm dying to know what team it was. Where are you working tonight? I've got St. Thomas Academy boys tonight and Minneapolis North-Breck girls on Saturday. Should be fun.

Later,

The 2nd Best MN Ref on this Board

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by mnref14
Somebody down in your neck of the woods dunked in a High School game? It must of been that 7-footer from Rochester!!! I'm dying to know what team it was. Where are you working tonight? I've got St. Thomas Academy boys tonight and Minneapolis North-Breck girls on Saturday. Should be fun.

Later,

The 2nd Best MN Ref on this Board

Don't give me a big head!!!


MN14:

There are a few players down here that can dunk. Longar Longar from John Marshall (rochester) brings the house down... Going to Oklahoma. I have also had a kid from Byron dunk a couple of times (2A school) The game in question was Le-Roy Ostrander HS. They are ranked in State in 1A. (town size only about 200.) He is 6'6" and going to a D2 school somewhere I believe. There are a few others down here that can rock and roll as well.

Thansk for the compliment!!! Later

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref

JR: I don't think that is correct: Reading rule 5-6-4, I think we start the the 4th with the tech throws.

5-6-4 states: If a tech foul occurs after the ball has become dead (it did when it went through the hoop 6-7-1) to end a period, The next quarter is started w/ the administering of the free throws. This as long as the free throws have no affect on the playing of an extra period. (didn't it was the end of the third)

Check out R4-1. If a player dunks a ball and then charges a stationary defender on the way down,do you ignore the PC foul because the ball was dead? Nope-because the "act of shooting" hasn't ended until the shooter returns to the floor.The same reasoning applies to your play! The play has to be completed. In this case,the play isn't completed until the shooter lands(by R4-1),so the T has to be a part of the 3rd. quarter.JMO.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Check out R4-1. If a player dunks a ball and then charges a stationary defender on the way down,do you ignore the PC foul because the ball was dead? Nope-because the "act of shooting" hasn't ended until the shooter returns to the floor.The same reasoning applies to your play! The play has to be completed. In this case,the play isn't completed until the shooter lands(by R4-1),so the T has to be a part of the 3rd. quarter.JMO.

JR:

I agree w/ this statement about the shooter being airborne till he lands. However the fact that the player is an airborne shooter has nothing to do w/ the fact that the T occurs after:

1. The ball had become dead (through the hoop)
2. The period had ended.

Because these two conditions are met, IMO the T must be shot to start the 4th. This is supported word for word in 5-6-4.

The reason this is important is the fact that if the T is shot to start the 4th B automatically gets the ball. Conversely if the T is shot as an extension of the third, Aor B may get the ball to start the 4th (depending on AP)

[Jurassic Referee]

MN3, read Rule4-19-1--"A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead".
Also see Casebook play 4.19.6SitD--"The airborne shooter could be charged with an intentional or flagrant personal foul or with a technical foul".

These are all fouls that can happen before the play is over on your sitch.The horn doesn't end the quarter on a play when a shooter has let the shot go,but hasn't come down yet.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
MN3, read Rule4-19-1--"A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead".
Also see Casebook play 4.19.6SitD--"The airborne shooter could be charged with an intentional or flagrant personal foul or with a technical foul".

These are all fouls that can happen before the play is over on your sitch.The horn doesn't end the quarter on a play when a shooter has let the shot go,but hasn't come down yet.

Again I agree w/ all you have said above but I still do not believe the airborne shooter status does apply as he is not fouling another player (PC before returning to the floor) or being fouled by another player in which the free throws WOULD be administered to end the 3rd quarter.
Read5.6 CommentB on p37 of the case book. It seems to support the throws being shot to start the 4th quarter (in my original sitch) as well

[RookieDude]

Wow...these are great points by both JR and MN3.
At first light, I thought I would do as JR suggested.
Make the T part of the 3rd Quarter.
But on further review...I'm leaning toward MN3's rule references.

Here's why:
Team B dosen't get the full benefit of the "punishment" for A1 swinging on the rim if you don't make it a part of the 4th quarter.
Also, and maybe a better point, the unsporting act of swinging on the rim could be judged to happen AFTER THE SHOT...what would you call if A2 had jumped up and swung on the rim after the ball had gone through the basket just as A1 did?
We would call T on A2 and start the 4th quarter with shots and Team B with the ball. Hmmmmmm, just some thoughts.

Dude


[Edited by RookieDude on Jan 10th, 2003 at 02:50 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

MN3,I did read CB5.6CommentB. I think that the first 3 sentences of CB5.6CommentA,combined with the citations that I have already given,are the ones that are applicable in this particular sitch. Again,JMO.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RookieDude

Here's why:
Team B dosen't get the full benefit of the "punishment" for A1 swinging on the rim if you don't make it a part of the 4th quarter.
Also, and maybe a better point, the unsporting act of swinging on the rim could be judged to happen AFTER THE SHOT...what would you call if A2 had jumped up and swung on the rim after the ball had gone through the basket just as A1 did?
We would call T on A2 and start the 4th quarter with shots and Team B with the ball. Hmmmmmm, just some thoughts.

1)If you call a deliberate or flagrant personal foul by a defender on the an airborne shooter after he has released the ball-and time for the quarter then expires-you also won't be giving team B the full "punishment".It's 2 shots for the shooter,and you start the next period with an AP.That's no different than the sitch I'm talking about.
2)A2 committing a T has got absolutely nothing to do with what the airborne shooter is doing.It's a completely different occurence that will carry it's own,seperate penalty.Depending on when A2's T occurs,it could be part of the 3rd. quarter OR start off the 4th. quarter.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
MN3,I did read CB5.6CommentB. I think that the first 3 sentences of CB5.6CommentA,combined with the citations that I have already given,are the ones that are applicable in this particular sitch. Again,JMO.

CB5.6.B If a TECHNICAL foul occurs after the BALL HAS BECOME DEAD TO END A QUARTER, the NEXT QUARTER is started by administering the free throws.

Rookie dude also makes a good point as B would not get the full benefit of the technical if throws were shot to end 3rd quarter as they may or may not get the throw in (due to AP arrow)

JR I see your rationalle totally that the player is still an airborne shooter, but believe that term is used to describe the shooter being fouled or fouling (PC) before coming to the floor.

4-19-1 as we have refenced previously has an important word in it's definition This refering to CONTACT fouls (which may be intentional or flagrant)committed by the airborne shooter. This is neither of those.
CB4.19.6D does not mention the word contact however, the rule above does.

If any other player on the court (than the AB shooter) commits a T after the horn has sounded and ball is deas it is administered at the beginning of the 4th quarter. Why is this any different? Whether or not the player was an AB shooter should have no bearing as none of the stipulations of the T require or exclude the fouling player to be airborne.

This is really a great discussion

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

1)If you call a deliberate or flagrant personal foul by a defender on the an airborne shooter after he has released the ball-and time for the quarter then expires-you also won't be giving team B the full "punishment".It's 2 shots for the shooter,and you start the next period with an AP.That's no different than the sitch I'm talking about.

Good point...I'll give you that one.
So, as I said, that might not be the better reason for starting the 4th quarter with the shots and the ball.

Consider this JR...would you still call A1 an airborne shooter if he dunked the ball, swung on the rim and THEN upon and before coming to the ground A1 intentionally fouled B1.
You would have the dunk...
then the T....
then the intentional foul on A1.(would you call this a personal foul or a technical foul?)
I believe your Case Book play, 4.19.6 sitD would back you up either way on this call.
So, our true debate here is weather or not A1 is still defined as an airborne shooter while he is swinging on the rim.
If A1 is considered an airborne shooter you have to go with JR's call.
If you think A1 has completed his "act of shooting" by hanging on the rim, you have to go with MN3's call.

Does that about sum it up?

Dude

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RookieDude
[/B]

So, our true debate here is weather or not A1 is still defined as an airborne shooter while he is swinging on the rim.
If A1 is considered an airborne shooter you have to go with JR's call.
If you think A1 has completed his "act of shooting" by hanging on the rim, you have to go with MN3's call.

Does that about sum it up?
[/B][/QUOTE]I think that A1 completed his "act of shooting' by hanging on the rim, BUT the "hanging on the rim"(and the T for it)was PART of the that "act of shooting". This is basically why I think that the COMPLETE play is part of the 3rd. quarter.