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Old Tue Apr 26, 2011, 11:33am
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End of Game Question

I haven't posted to the forum before but I have learned a lot in the past few months reading about the logic behind the rulings and their implementation. That being said, we had a situation in a tournament this past weekend and I have not been able to get a definitive answer on the issue.

Boys 15U AAU tournament in Akron

Team A up one with 7 seconds left trying to inbound from under their own basket throws long inbound pass that is intercepted just past half court by Team B. Player from Team B dribble past center court and shoots and hits the rim but misses. He gets the long rebound and is going up for a second shot as he is obviously fouled. It looks like the contact on the shooting arm starts before the horn but it is questionable if the ball is out of his hand before time runs out.

The official called the shooting foul and both freethrows were made to win the game by 1 with no time remaining. Any issues with the call (assuming the contact was before the horn and ball did not leave his hand until after).

Before you ask... I am not an official but I am an engineer so I enjoy detailed banter

Thanks.....

Last edited by mi_ball; Tue Apr 26, 2011 at 11:35am.
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Old Tue Apr 26, 2011, 11:40am
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Looks like the proper call by your play description.
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Old Tue Apr 26, 2011, 11:42am
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Thanks for the quick reply Jurassic
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Old Tue Apr 26, 2011, 11:44am
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If he is contacted prior to the horn, it seems like a good call. If he had made the shot, it would not have counted (assuming it was released after the horn and no official could see any time on the clock after the whistle for the foul).

If contact was after the horn and the ball was not released prior to the horn, no call.

If the whistle for the foul blew before the horn AND an official saw time on the clock after the whistle, the basket can count even if the horn goes off before the release since they'll be able to put time back on the clock.
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Old Tue Apr 26, 2011, 11:52am
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Excellent. Odd that it would be a shooting foul that is awarded free throws but it is possible that the shot would not count if it went in. I guess conflicts like that will arise when dealing with so many possible situations.
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Old Tue Apr 26, 2011, 12:10pm
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Originally Posted by mi_ball View Post
Excellent. Odd that it would be a shooting foul that is awarded free throws but it is possible that the shot would not count if it went in. I guess conflicts like that will arise when dealing with so many possible situations.
Not really...

6-7-7

The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when a foul, other than player- or team-control, occurs

EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:

c. occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket.
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Old Tue Apr 26, 2011, 12:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mi_ball View Post
Excellent. Odd that it would be a shooting foul that is awarded free throws but it is possible that the shot would not count if it went in. I guess conflicts like that will arise when dealing with so many possible situations.
It really isn't a conflict. If the "habitual shooting motion" has started then the player is in the act of shooting and would get his/her free throws. There are lots of times when the foul keeps the offensive player from releasing the shot, but they still get their free throws.
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Old Tue Apr 26, 2011, 12:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mi_ball View Post
Excellent. Odd that it would be a shooting foul that is awarded free throws but it is possible that the shot would not count if it went in. I guess conflicts like that will arise when dealing with so many possible situations.
The oddity arises because it's sometimes not possible to stop the clock before it expires. So if you have foul-horn-release, the shot doesn't count but the foul does. If no official has definite information about how much time should go on the clock, by rule none is put back up.

Sounds as if that's what happened in your game.
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Old Tue Apr 26, 2011, 12:14pm
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The other possibility (not part of the OP) is if the shooter "travels" after being fouled but before releasing the shot. The ball remains live on a foul if the shooting motion has begun, but the shooter's travel would make the ball dead.
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Old Tue Apr 26, 2011, 12:26pm
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Tref: so you are saying the shot would not have counted since the ball was not out of his hand? "provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight"

I accept that can be the correct call, I just thought it was odd that he would get free throws but no way for the shot to count even if it went in. symantics - i guess

Rocky: I see your point about many times the shot not getting released, etc but my point was that an attempt that was awarded freethrows did not have a way of counting if it went in (without any other violations - thanks Snak)

Mbyron: your point is not very satisfying even though it makes complete sense
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Old Tue Apr 26, 2011, 12:47pm
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Originally Posted by mi_ball View Post
Tref: so you are saying the shot would not have counted since the ball was not out of his hand? "provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight"

I accept that can be the correct call, I just thought it was odd that he would get free throws but no way for the shot to count even if it went in. symantics - i guess

Rocky: I see your point about many times the shot not getting released, etc but my point was that an attempt that was awarded freethrows did not have a way of counting if it went in (without any other violations - thanks Snak)

Mbyron: your point is not very satisfying even though it makes complete sense
You are right, it's odd. It's odd because you likely never actually see it happen when the shot goes in. I wouldn't be surprised if most officials never have to call it, and that a certain percentage of those who did have the play might get it wrong.

Kinda like the 10 second free throw violation or a T for flopping; it might be a once-in-a-career call if at all.
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Old Tue Apr 26, 2011, 12:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mi_ball View Post
Tref: so you are saying the shot would not have counted since the ball was not out of his hand? "provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight"

I accept that can be the correct call, I just thought it was odd that he would get free throws but no way for the shot to count even if it went in. symantics - i guess

Rocky: I see your point about many times the shot not getting released, etc but my point was that an attempt that was awarded freethrows did not have a way of counting if it went in (without any other violations - thanks Snak)

Mbyron: your point is not very satisfying even though it makes complete sense
Was he fouled in the act of shooting? Yes.

Did he get the shot off? No.

So, it's 2 (or 3) FTs. The same as any other time during the game when those two questions are answered in that way.
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Old Tue Apr 26, 2011, 01:01pm
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Old Tue Apr 26, 2011, 01:14pm
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Have we established whether Team B was in the bonus/double bonus? That could be a reason why free throws were awarded, shooting foul or not.
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Old Tue Apr 26, 2011, 01:15pm
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It better not be.

I think mi_ball was wondering if it should have been called a foul at all since it wasn't released before the horn.
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