Rule changes

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I thought we were talking about HS rules where there is no shot clock and, before now, there was no team control on the throwin.

Under that context....covering the timeframe where you always felt the rule was not adequate, what exactly was missing or unclear? Some things are just that simple.

I just noticed, while looking at the NCAA book, that player control is technically defined to exist during the throw-in.

Art. 1. A player shall be in control when:
a. Holding a live ball; or
b. Dribbling a live ball while inbounds.

Hmmm.

But the rule does not say player control nor team control to have a 10-second count. It says continuous control. And we have the situation where if a team has the ball in the front court and the defense tips the ball into the back court we start the count as soon as the ball attains back court status. That flies directly in the face of what most interpret as to when to start the BC count for throw-ins, doesn't it?

So you are doing your pregame. And the sitch posed is: we have a throw-in after a made basket (NCAA rules) and a) B1 tips the ball and the ball bounces in the BC or b) A2 tips the ball and the ball bounces in the BC. When should the 10-second count start? We know that the shot clock starts immediately in both cases.

And pretend I'm a young official working his first career JuCo game so I have my rule book in hand looking for a clear reference. And this young official just reviewed how A1, in the FC, passes to A2 but the ball is tipped into the BC by B2 and this young officials knows that we start the 10-second as soon as the ball attains BC status.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The same way we start it without the clock running. The ball is live, start swinging, partner.

You're right, it doesn't make sense because of the way we've always done it, but by rule, that'll be how it goes unless the RC takes it into account with exceptions.

It'll be just like the situation where a ball goes back into the BC after having established FC status; the new 10 second count should begin as soon as the ball gains BC status since TC is ongoing.

So, five second count with the left and ten second count with the right? Or the other way around?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

So, five second count with the left and ten second count with the right? Or the other way around?

No, because the release of the TI ends the 5 second cound.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

But the rule does not say player control nor team control to have a 10-second count. It says continuous control.

It says a player or team may not be in continuous control. I'm not sure what's missing.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And we have the situation where if a team has the ball in the front court and the defense tips the ball into the back court we start the count as soon as the ball attains back court status. That flies directly in the face of what most interpret as to when to start the BC count for throw-ins, doesn't it?

Yes, because currently the required element of team control isn't present until a player controls it inbounds. Under the proposed rule, that will change. Unless they make the required exceptions (I'm assuming they'll model the changes after the NCAA, but you never know).

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, because the release of the TI ends the 5 second cound.

You did not specify when the arm started swinging. It appeared that it was when team control began which would occur when the thrower-in had possession of the ball that you were suggesting as a starting point. And since one for the five second count would begin simultaneously, it was natural to ask which arm had which count.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

You did not specify when the arm started swinging. It appeared that it was when team control began which would occur when the thrower-in had possession of the ball that you were suggesting as a starting point. And since one for the five second count would begin simultaneously, it was natural to ask which arm had which count.

No, the count would start once team control and BC status were both obtained. During a throwin, that could be as soon as the throw-in pass bounces in the BC.

So, while your arm is still up because the clock hasn't started, you would need to begin your 10 second count.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, the count would start once team control and BC status were both obtained. During a throwin, that could be as soon as the throw-in pass bounces in the BC.

So, while your arm is still up because the clock hasn't started, you would need to begin your 10 second count.

You didn't say that. And if your arm is up, are you not supposed to give a visible count for 5 seconds? So, if your arm is up, and you are giving a visible count for 5 seconds to inbound after you put the ball at the inbounder's disposal, do you need a third arm for the commencement of the 10 second count, since you did not state originally, that that count started after the inbound pass was released? And, if in switching arms, due to different counts, ala closely guarded situations, how do you accomplish same if your one arm is held in the air because time has not been chopped in?

*waits for the 'shut up'*

[Adam]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

You didn't say that. And if your arm is up, are you not supposed to give a visible count for 5 seconds? So, if your arm is up, and you are giving a visible count for 5 seconds to inbound after you put the ball at the inbounder's disposal, do you need a third arm for the commencement of the 10 second count, since you did not state originally, that that count started after the inbound pass was released? And, if in switching arms, due to different counts, ala closely guarded situations, how do you accomplish same if your one arm is held in the air because time has not been chopped in?

*waits for the 'shut up'*

Sure I did, when I posted the rule. And your questions are where tref was going, too. my point is, he's right in that the mechanics would be messy, but messy or difficult mechanics don't negate the way the rule is worded.

Now shut up.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Sure I did, when I posted the rule. And your questions are where tref was going, too. my point is, he's right in that the mechanics would be messy, but messy or difficult mechanics don't negate the way the rule is worded.

Now shut up.

So, you are not really sure when one count ends and the other begins?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

But the rule does not say player control nor team control to have a 10-second count. It says continuous control. And we have the situation where if a team has the ball in the front court and the defense tips the ball into the back court we start the count as soon as the ball attains back court status. That flies directly in the face of what most interpret as to when to start the BC count for throw-ins, doesn't it?

So you are doing your pregame. And the sitch posed is: we have a throw-in after a made basket (NCAA rules) and a) B1 tips the ball and the ball bounces in the BC or b) A2 tips the ball and the ball bounces in the BC. When should the 10-second count start? We know that the shot clock starts immediately in both cases.

And pretend I'm a young official working his first career JuCo game so I have my rule book in hand looking for a clear reference. And this young official just reviewed how A1, in the FC, passes to A2 but the ball is tipped into the BC by B2 and this young officials knows that we start the 10-second as soon as the ball attains BC status.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It says a player or team may not be in continuous control. I'm not sure what's missing.



Yes, because currently the required element of team control isn't present until a player controls it inbounds. Under the proposed rule, that will change. Unless they make the required exceptions (I'm assuming they'll model the changes after the NCAA, but you never know).

That's the problem Snaq's, I am talking about the NCAA rule. And nobody has yet to point out where there is an exception written for the 10-second BC count that differentiates between and a tipped pass from the FC and a tipped throw-in. I say the NCAA needs to elaborate more on the rule, but Camron says that rule was clearly written.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That's the problem Snaq's, I am talking about the NCAA rule. And nobody has yet to point out where there is an exception written for the 10-second BC count that differentiates between and a tipped pass from the FC and a tipped throw-in. I say the NCAA needs to elaborate more on the rule, but Camron says that rule was clearly written.

Well never mind, then. I agree if that's the case.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

So, you are not really sure when one count ends and the other begins?

I hope this isn't a serious question. The mechanics are messy due to the arm being up with the clock stopped, but there is no reason the two counts would be confused.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I hope this isn't a serious question. The mechanics are messy due to the arm being up with the clock stopped, but there is no reason the two counts would be confused.

Let me elaborate. I bounce the ball to A1 with my right hand raised and commence counting with my left. After the count of two, for argument's sake, since that is what we are doing, A1 releases the ball inbounds and I suspend that count. The ball hits the floor, and, still with the left hand, since there has not been a touch, I commence my count for 10 seconds. It seems to me that it is not just awkward, but wrong to use the same arm for the visible count since, at that point, I have not chopped in time. Where this really comes into play, is when those players who think it is a good idea to roll the ball in and have their teammate not pick it up right away, do so.

I sincerely hope that the rules committee declares that the count begins for 10 seconds once the touch occurs on the inbound pass. That would allow the chop, and the switch of hands for the different count.

And, btw, I really wish they would make those dorky compression sleeves legal or illegal.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You'll need to get him a copy of the original Greek text first.

Latin!! Latin!! The original text has to be in Latin, then one can translate it into Italian, and then finally English for it to make any sense.

MTD, Sr.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Let me elaborate. I bounce the ball to A1 with my right hand raised and commence counting with my left. After the count of two, for argument's sake, since that is what we are doing, A1 releases the ball inbounds and I suspend that count. The ball hits the floor, and, still with the left hand, since there has not been a touch, I commence my count for 10 seconds. It seems to me that it is not just awkward, but wrong to use the same arm for the visible count since, at that point, I have not chopped in time. Where this really comes into play, is when those players who think it is a good idea to roll the ball in and have their teammate not pick it up right away, do so.

I sincerely hope that the rules committee declares that the count begins for 10 seconds once the touch occurs on the inbound pass. That would allow the chop, and the switch of hands for the different count.

And, btw, I really wish they would make those dorky compression sleeves legal or illegal.

NCAA already has TC for a throw-in and the 10-second does not start if the clock is not yet chopped in. I'm guessing the words "inbounds players" is what would cover you for this situation. I'm also guessing those words are supposed to be the reason we don't start the count if a defender tips the throw-in. Still don't know definitively whether or not to start the BC count if the ball hits an inbounds offensive player.

Rule 9 Section 10. (Men) 10-Second Violation
An inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a ball that is in his back court for 10 consecutive seconds.