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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2011, 09:23pm
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Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
How does this eliminate exceptions? Now you need an exception to the backcourt rule, an exception to the 3-seconds rule. . .
If the 3-second rule was written to include possession inbounds and in the FC, then no exception would be needed.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2011, 09:25pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I have heard from a pretty good source that there is one and only one rule change this year....team control on a throw-in.
This rule change will induce a mechanics change: the calling official will now have to voice at the time of infraction, the location of the ensuing throw-in. Not doing at this time could raise uncertainty about one's call.

More importantly, they will have to be dead-on accurate with their closest spots. In the past, awarding a FC throw-in when it should have been a BC throw-in was no big deal. Now it is, in a big way.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2011, 09:31pm
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Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
This rule change will induce a mechanics change: the calling official will now have to voice at the time of infraction, the location of the ensuing throw-in. Not doing at this time could raise uncertainty about one's call.

More importantly, they will have to be dead-on accurate with their closest spots. In the past, awarding a FC throw-in when it should have been a BC throw-in was no big deal. Now it is, in a big way.
Why? I'm sure they'll make the rule and accompanying exceptions the same as NCAA, so for the most part, we handle this exactly the same way.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2011, 09:53pm
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Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
If the 3-second rule was written to include possession inbounds and in the FC, then no exception would be needed.
OOB is not part of the front or back court. OOB is adjacent to the corresponding part of the court.

Rule 4-3 Art. 2. A team’s front court shall consist of that part of the playing court between its end line and the nearer edge of the division line, including its basket and the inbounds part of its backboard.

At least it's that way in the NCAA rule book. So there is no need for an exception. The NFHS just needs to define the front court in the rule book. But as it stands I see nothing in the NFHS rule or case book that tells us to have a 3-second count during a front court throw-in.
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Last edited by Raymond; Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 09:58pm.
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2011, 09:59pm
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Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
Why? I'm sure they'll make the rule and accompanying exceptions the same as NCAA, so for the most part, we handle this exactly the same way.
Having never read the NCAA book, I can't comment to your post. If the NCAA has TC on a TI, then following their lead makes sense.

I was working the assumption that if there's TC on a TI, then an inbounding pass from FC to BC is illegal. This is how it works in FIBA. I've also learned that many officials have to make up the closest spot when they don't identify the throw-in spot with prelim signal. After the fact spot identification; sometimes they're close, sometimes not. If they're not close, it exists assigning the TI to the wrong "court".

And any official worth his game fee will not get this stuff wrong.
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2011, 10:00pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
OOB is not part of the front or back court. OOB is adjacent to the corresponding part of the court.

Rule 4-3 Art. 2. A teamís front court shall consist of that part of the playing court between its end line and the nearer edge of the division line, including its basket and the inbounds part of its backboard.

At least it's that way in the NCAA rule book. So there is no need for an exception. The NFHS just needs to define the front court in the rule book. But as it stands I see nothing in the NFHS rule or case book that tells us to have a 3-second count during a front court throw-in.
See above.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 21, 2011, 10:03pm
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Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
Having never read the NCAA book, I can't comment to your post. If the NCAA has TC on a TI, then following their lead makes sense.

I was working the assumption that if there's TC on a TI, then an inbounding pass from FC to BC is illegal. This is how it works in FIBA. I've also learned that many officials have to make up the closest spot when they don't identify the throw-in spot with prelim signal. After the fact spot identification; sometimes they're close, sometimes not. If they're not close, it exists assigning the TI to the wrong "court".

And any official worth his game fee will not get this stuff wrong.
NCAA does have team control during a throw-in and has specific exemptions that allow the ball to be thrown into the backcourt and allows a team to retrieve the ball in the backcourt after the throw-in ends if player control has not been established first.

I believe only FIBA and the NBA do not allow frontcourt throw-ins to be thrown into the backcourt and even the NBA allows that in the final two minutes of the 4th/OT.
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2011, 10:24pm
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Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
Having never read the NCAA book, I can't comment to your post. If the NCAA has TC on a TI, then following their lead makes sense.

I was working the assumption that if there's TC on a TI, then an inbounding pass from FC to BC is illegal. This is how it works in FIBA. ....
No such restriction in NCAA.
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2011, 10:25pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
OOB is not part of the front or back court. OOB is adjacent to the corresponding part of the court....


At least it's that way in the NCAA rule book. .... The NFHS just needs to define the front court in the rule book.
Done. See 4-13, Court Areas.
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2011, 10:27pm
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Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Done. See 4-13, Court Areas.
Thanks, guess I was kinda lazy on my search. So no need to make any exceptions for 3-seconds during a front court adjacent throw-in.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2011, 12:13am
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I'm curious, though, how they're going to handle 9-1-3, in-bounding a ball to a teammate who jumps from the frontcourt, catches, and lands in the backcourt. I see a few words there that may need to be changed.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2011, 12:21am
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Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
I'm curious, though, how they're going to handle 9-1-3, in-bounding a ball to a teammate who jumps from the frontcourt, catches, and lands in the backcourt. I see a few words there that may need to be changed.
You don't have to change anything...as it is, the current exemption already in the book applies to a throw-in (player catches the throw in while in mid-air)...the others being during a jump ball and by for the team not in control of the ball. If we didn't have this exception, the play would be a backcourt violation already.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2011, 06:34am
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
But as it stands I see nothing in the NFHS rule or case book that tells us to have a 3-second count during a front court throw-in.
If the NFHS rule was changed to include team control on a throw-in, then NFHS rule 9-7-1 would apply during front-court throw-ins without an exception. You'd need an exception for that, as well as all front-court throw-ins that went directly to a teammate of the thrower in the backcourt(9-9-1).

See NCAA rules 4-3-5 & 9-9-1(a). Those were the exceptions the NCAA had to add.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2011, 08:52am
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
If the NFHS rule was changed to include team control on a throw-in, then NFHS rule 9-7-1 would apply during front-court throw-ins without an exception. You'd need an exception for that, as well as all front-court throw-ins that went directly to a teammate of the thrower in the backcourt(9-9-1).

See NCAA rules 4-3-5 & 9-9-1(a). Those were the exceptions the NCAA had to add.
My contention is that even without 9-9-1(a) there is no rules basis to call 3-seconds on a front court throw-in under NCAA rules. And I say that even without exceptions you would still be able to legally throw-in directly to a teammate who has back court status.

I agree that certain exceptions are needed in regards to front/back court status for tipped balls and players who leave their feet.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 22, 2011, 09:09am
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
My contention is that even without 9-9-1(a) there is no rules basis to call 3-seconds on a front court throw-in under NCAA rules. And I say that even without exceptions you would still be able to legally throw-in directly to a teammate who has back court status.

I agree that certain exceptions are needed in regards to front/back court status for tipped balls and players who leave their feet.
Agreed, a thrower does not have either FC or BC status, as both courts are defined as being in bounds. That said, an exception would still need to be made, otherwise the 3 second count would need to start as soon as the ball touched the FC or was tipped by any player (offensive or defensive) in the throw-in team's FC.

The same situation applies to the 10 second BC violation.
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