Eligible, Available, and Sitting

[Ref in PA]

I realize that in this situation, the referee feels the coach to be obviously lying (when the coach said the player was injured or ill), but I would be inclined to abide by what the coach said.

Players indicate to the bench that they need to come out of the game for a hurt or injury all the time and are subbed for during a dead ball. There could be a million reasons why for a illness or injury that we, as refs, did not see or witness.

Keeping a player on the bench because of quarters is not a valid reason by the rule book, but keeping a player on the bench because of injury or illness is. The coach only has to supply the valid reason. The ill/injured player should be on the bench with the team unless adult personnel is with the player in the locker room. I don't think I would have forced the varsity player to participate in this circumstance.

[Rich]

....I mean, we're talking about forcing a player to forfeit varsity eligibility to play in a JV game.

No way, no how does this fit the spirit of a "quarter played" rule. Players should be used at multiple levels in the manner the coaching staff sees fit. If a coach tells me that the player is unavailable because s/he's playing in the varsity contest, that's good enough for me even if s/he's still sitting on the bench in uniform.

The other coach arguing and trying to get the player to burn eligibility? To me, that's unsporting.

In my opinion, the right way to handle this is to get the ball back into play right away and not give the other coach the time to complain about it.

And since there's a powerplay, remember that the team with four players can ice the puck whenever they want

Rich

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by rainmaker

And for the life of me, I still can't understand why 27, who was dressed down couldn't have just gone and stood on the corner of the floor and not actually participated, but been on the floor to make five players, and thus save 34 for the varsity game.

Maybe because she was wearing an illegal number?

Seriously, though, it's best not to inquire as to the minds of coaches. We don't have MRI's powerful enough to sort through everything yet.

[williebfree]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Seriously, though, it's best not to inquire as to the minds of coaches. We don't have MRI's powerful enough to sort through everything yet.

Mark, there has to be substance to create an MR image.

[rainmaker]

Okay, here's what I will do next time. Require the coach to play the girl, until he claims she is injured. At which point I will say to the opponent coach, "I can't require her to play injured. If that creates an eligibility problem in the next game, you'll have to deal with that with the tournament director."

Fronheiser, I just want to point out that I wasn't in the mood to look for trouble, and I wasn't digging for a rule to push the coach up against. I just couldn't remember what the rules were about when a player was available. I didn't require him to go to the other gym and force a varsity player to dress down. This gal had played in my game already, and was dressed, in the book, and on the bench. If that's not available, I don't know what is. And I have had several refs with whom I discussed this, agree that I was correct to require her to play. So, I guess I wasn't totally out of line.

[Nevadaref]

Rainmaker,
We have this rule out here too for some of the state's smallest schools. It says something like if a school only has 15 players on both the JV and Varsity teams, they may have non-seniors play in both games provided no player plays more than 6 quarters. (or maybe it is 5)
Anyway my point is that I did have to deal with this once last year, but it was during the Varsity game. In the 4th quarter one coach came up to me and informed me that a player from the other team had now played too many quarters. I told him to send a tape of the game along with his complaint to the league office, but we would finish the game. He did. He was right. The league ruled the game a forfeit. The office also told me that I handled the situation correctly. Play the game to completion and let them deal with eligibility rules.
After this game I gave some thought to what I would have done if this game were not being filmed. I decided that I would do the same thing. They used to resolve these problems in the days before video tape, and they had this rule back then too.
Now your situation is a bit different because it caused a problem in the first game and then you believe effected the outcome of the second game.
I would simply tell the coach that he has to play the girl or forfeit the game. If they really care about winning the Varsity game, which he is saving her for, then he will simply forfeit the JV game at this point. You didn't force her to play, nor did you break the rule about having to play with five. In short make it the team's decision.
And Ron you missed the point of my earlier post in which I said to forfeit the game and go watch the movie Hoosiers!
The joke was that they did play with 4 in the movie, but that is Hollywood, not real life. That game should have been forfeited too.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
I would simply tell the coach that he has to play the girl or forfeit the game.

This is what I did. I think the mistake I made is that I should have let him off the hook when he claimed the player was sick. Someone besides me could have dealt with the eligibility of a sick player in the varsity game.

And Ron you missed the point of my earlier post in which I said to forfeit the game and go watch the movie Hoosiers!
The joke was that they did play with 4 in the movie, but that is Hollywood, not real life. That game should have been forfeited too.

But it's based on a true story. Perhaps in Indiana in the 50's they didn't have the rule about available subs.

[Rich]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Okay, here's what I will do next time. Require the coach to play the girl, until he claims she is injured. At which point I will say to the opponent coach, "I can't require her to play injured. If that creates an eligibility problem in the next game, you'll have to deal with that with the tournament director."

Fronheiser, I just want to point out that I wasn't in the mood to look for trouble, and I wasn't digging for a rule to push the coach up against. I just couldn't remember what the rules were about when a player was available. I didn't require him to go to the other gym and force a varsity player to dress down. This gal had played in my game already, and was dressed, in the book, and on the bench. If that's not available, I don't know what is. And I have had several refs with whom I discussed this, agree that I was correct to require her to play. So, I guess I wasn't totally out of line.

My name is Rich

I disagree with the other refs too, then. I take the rules seriously, but in the end I feel common sense has to rule the day. Common sense dictates that if a coach wants to play shorthanded, you don't argue with him.

Sorry, but I simply feel the varsity game takes precedence. We are told not to be picky when it comes to old uniforms at the subvarsity level (when they are wearing hand-me-downs that no longer conform to the FED rules). I can look the other way here, too.

With this I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Rich

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

After this game I gave some thought to what I would have done if this game were not being filmed. I decided that I would do the same thing. They used to resolve these problems in the days before video tape, and they had this rule back then too.

That's why you [hopefully] have good scorers. In CT, we never had a quarter rule (at least, one of which I was aware) but we still tracked who went into the game each quarter - even if only for a microsecond. Never really gave much thought as to why that was in the book until this discussion came up.

[Nevadaref]

Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich, Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich, Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich, Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich,Rich, sorry. Ok, I think I've got the name now.
Mark,
Last year I realized that the scorers really don't track who is playing very well. The system should be changed. One of my fellow officials had a fight in one of his games. After things settled down, he went to the scorer's table in an attempt to find out who were the five players from each team that were in the game when the incident occured.
The scorer was unable to help. They only mark who has played, and don't keep track of when. This made the situation very difficult to sort out because people came off of both benches.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Last year I realized that the scorers really don't track who is playing very well. The system should be changed. One of my fellow officials had a fight in one of his games. After things settled down, he went to the scorer's table in an attempt to find out who were the five players from each team that were in the game when the incident occured.
The scorer was unable to help. They only mark who has played, and don't keep track of when. This made the situation very difficult to sort out because people came off of both benches.

Two problems on this one - (a) the scorers are not required to keep track of who is in the game (b) the scorebook really has no place to mark who is in the game at what time.

Of course, the best scorers use a separate sheet of paper to keep track of substitutes and the like - it tends to be most helpful in situations where you have subs, no time off the clock, and one of the players who left the game then wants to sub back in.