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Old Sat Dec 28, 2002, 02:20am
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I need to ask about a sitch that happened today at a girls' JV tournament. Team B had seven names in the book, but only six bodies on the floor, because one girl was "sick". I'm still not sure whether she ever played. But her name was in the book, and she was apparently eligible to play. Game goes along. End of third quarter B5 fouled out. Coach says he will play on with four players. We go along. With about 5 minutes left in the fourth quarter, table buzzes my partner over and there's this little conference, and then I get called over. It appears that coach B had another player who had played in the first and second quarters, but was now sitting the bench. My partner thought that the rule was that if there was a player available, she was required to play. I went over to coach B, and asked about #34. He said he wanted to play without her, because he was saving her quarters for the varsity part ofthe tournament later today. (In Oregon, HS players are only allowed to play in 5 quarters in one day). I told him he was required to play her, since she was eligible and available. There was a good deal of discussion, but I finally insisted that she play or the coach could forfeit. He finally put her in, and she finished the game.

The "sick" girl was dressed down, and there, but he wouldn't put her in. I don't know why she couldn't have just stood in the corner of the floor, so the team could finish the game, but he refused to put her in, too.

Now comes the question. I can't find anywhere that it definitely says she must play, but several refs all agree that it's the rule. 3-1-1 says, "Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain." and then there's a Note, "A team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five."

I suppose it all hinges on that little "if" -- if a team has no substitutes. In my situation, there was a substitute, so the if doesn't apply, and the implication is that #34 must play.

Furthermore, he tried to claim that she was injured and therefore, not "available." I said that in that case, she would be injured for the varsity game as well. But this istn't really my jurisdiction, is it? But it felt as though he were manipulating the rules unfairly, and I'm hoping that perhaps 2-3 would apply here.

If he had just had her leave the building at half-time, we'd never have known, and they'd have finished (and lost) the game with four players, and she would have gotten her precious 3 varsity quarters.

So what are the ins and outs of this situation?

[Edited by rainmaker on Dec 28th, 2002 at 01:23 AM]
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Old Sat Dec 28, 2002, 03:31am
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Ask this question loud enough and we will get an editorial revision next year in the rule book. I think this rule was written with the idea you want to play with as many players as you can on the floor. Not thinking about that situation where you want to keep a player out of the game so they could play another game.
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Old Sat Dec 28, 2002, 04:04am
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Now comes the question. I can't find anywhere that it definitely says she must play, but several refs all agree that it's the rule. 3-1-1 says, "Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain." and then there's a Note, "A team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five."

So what are the ins and outs of this situation?
The "ins and outs" are exactly what you did,Juulie. Good job!Handled perfectly.

If you can't find it in the rulebook,always check the same section in the casebook.From the ruling in CB3.1.1Sit.,"Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available.If NO substitute is available,a team must continue with less than five players".
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Old Sat Dec 28, 2002, 09:58am
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NO, NO, NO,...we as officials should not get into "counting" quarters for various players on various teams. THAT IS NOT OUR RESPONSABILITY!
Just as it is not our problem if a disqualified player from Friday night is playing in a game Saturday night.
That is an administrative procedure. If the school wants to take a chance on playing inelgible players...that is their problem, not ours. As officials we administer things that happen on the court...not off the court.

As far as a Coach not wanting to play a player...fine, lets play on. Maybe the kid is getting disciplined, maybe he/she really is hurt, maybe he/she is inelgible because of quarters, etc. (THERE IS NO SUBSTITUE AVAILABLE)
Again, IMO, not my job to "make" a player participate if a Coach dosen't want him/her to play.
Some of us talk about Official's liability...can you imagine "making" a player play after the Coach has told you he/she is injured and then he/she gets hurt...OUCH!

Dude

[Edited by RookieDude on Dec 28th, 2002 at 09:01 AM]
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Old Sat Dec 28, 2002, 10:38am
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Quote:
Originally posted by RookieDude
As far as a Coach not wanting to play a player...fine, lets play on. Maybe the kid is getting disciplined, maybe he/she really is hurt, maybe he/she is inelgible because of quarters, etc. (THERE IS NO SUBSTITUE AVAILABLE)
Again, IMO, not my job to "make" a player participate if a Coach dosen't want him/her to play.
Some of us talk about Official's liability...can you imagine "making" a player play after the Coach has told you he/she is injured and then he/she gets hurt...OUCH!
IMO,Rainmaker handled the play properly as per the rulebook,Dude.She didn't make the sick substitute play.She did make the other substitute play,as per the rules quoted above.

Did I read you right above? Are you saying that we shouldn't enforce that rule?
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Old Sat Dec 28, 2002, 10:40am
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Quote:
Originally posted by RookieDude
NO, NO, NO,...we as officials should not get into "counting" quarters for various players on various teams. THAT IS NOT OUR RESPONSABILITY!
Just as it is not our problem if a disqualified player from Friday night is playing in a game Saturday night.
That is an administrative procedure. If the school wants to take a chance on playing inelgible players...that is their problem, not ours. As officials we administer things that happen on the court...not off the court.

As far as a Coach not wanting to play a player...fine, lets play on. Maybe the kid is getting disciplined, maybe he/she really is hurt, maybe he/she is inelgible because of quarters, etc. (THERE IS NO SUBSTITUE AVAILABLE)
Again, IMO, not my job to "make" a player participate if a Coach dosen't want him/her to play.
Some of us talk about Official's liability...can you imagine "making" a player play after the Coach has told you he/she is injured and then he/she gets hurt...OUCH!

Dude

[Edited by RookieDude on Dec 28th, 2002 at 09:01 AM]
Be careful with your original statement Rook, in some states we do have to worry about quarters, games, etc. Don't ask me why, it is because the state says so.

As far as this sitch, the second the coach tells me she is hurt, that is fine with me, I don't know one way or the other and I am not about to find out the hard way. Plus, kids are suspended from halves or quarters all the time, who am I to judge, if the coach says the player cannot go in and wants to play with four, so be it. As far as the kid in the book in street clothes goes, he/she is not a legal sub, so you cannot put her in, but it is smart to put her in the book. If the game is suspended, and picks up a week later, the kid can play w/o penalty. Doesn't happen often, but it is a heads up move by the coach.
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Old Sat Dec 28, 2002, 11:02am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Watson
Quote:
Originally posted by RookieDude
Be careful with your original statement Rook, in some states we do have to worry about quarters, games, etc. Don't ask me why, it is because the state says so.

Yes, to the extent of wiping the score of the board at the end of each quarter in “6 quarter” practice games between schools. This so the quarters/games don't count against the total.
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Old Sat Dec 28, 2002, 11:36am
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Quote:
Originally posted by RookieDude
NO, NO, NO,...we as officials should not get into "counting" quarters for various players on various teams. THAT IS NOT OUR RESPONSABILITY!
Just as it is not our problem if a disqualified player from Friday night is playing in a game Saturday night.
That is an administrative procedure. If the school wants to take a chance on playing inelgible players...that is their problem, not ours. As officials we administer things that happen on the court...not off the court.
Where do you read that Juulie was counting quarters?
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Old Sat Dec 28, 2002, 02:01pm
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originally posted by BktBallRef
Where do you read that Juulie was counting quarters? __________________________________________________ _________
Originally posted by rainmaker
He said he wanted to play without her, because he was saving her quarters for the varsity part ofthe tournament later today. (In Oregon, HS players are only allowed to play in 5 quarters in one day). I told him he was required to play her, since she was eligible and available. There was a good deal of discussion, but I finally insisted that she play or the coach could forfeit. He finally put her in, and she finished the game.
__________________________________________________ __________
Coach said he was "saving her guarters"...what if he had said "she has played all her quarters"? Do you go back and check the previous game's books? IMO, NO!
My point is...the Coach says "Blah, Blah, Blah" it dosen't matter...if he dosen't want her to play then THERE IS NO SUBSTITUE AVAILABLE...play on!
__________________________________________________ _________
Originally posted by rainmaker
Furthermore, he tried to claim that she was injured and therefore, not "available." I said that in that case, she would be injured for the varsity game as well
__________________________________________________ __________
Am I reading you right, JR? Is this what you would do?

Again guys and gals, if a Coach tells me his Sub is not available to participate...then IMO the intent of the rule has been met.

Dude
P.S. Julie...you seem like a very conscientious official and a very likable person...but check out one of the Syn. for conscientious in "Webster's New World Thesaurus"...STRICT.
My motto is "watch out about being overly officious".
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Old Sat Dec 28, 2002, 02:39pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by RookieDude
__________________________________________________ ____
Originally posted by rainmaker
He said he wanted to play without her, because he was saving her quarters for the varsity part ofthe tournament later today. I told him he was required to play her, since she was eligible and available. There was a good deal of discussion, but I finally insisted that she play or the coach could forfeit. He finally put her in, and she finished the game.
__________________________________________________ _________
Originally posted by rainmaker
Furthermore, he tried to claim that she was injured and therefore, not "available." I said that in that case, she would be injured for the varsity game as well
__________________________________________________ __________
Am I reading you right, JR? Is this what you would do?

That's exactly what I'd do,Dude! First the coach tells you he isn't going to play a player because of "playing too many quarters".Then,when the referee shoots that one down(by rule),the coach now tries to claim that the same player is sick,instead. I call that-"trying to blow smoke up my a$$".

My motto is "Don't try to make up your own rules when you referee,or your a$$ is grass!". I can see not forcing a sick player to play.That's just common sense.I can't see trying to use this one though,UNLESS it was communicated to, and approved by, the R before the game.
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Old Sat Dec 28, 2002, 02:53pm
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Talking

originally posted by Jurasic Referee
...or your a$$ is grass!".

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...is that what you've been smokin' "Big Dog"!

Dude


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Old Sat Dec 28, 2002, 02:56pm
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I think rainmaker handled it perfectly. She didn't require the sick player to play. Good judgment. The other player was quite available (not sick, not injured) so according to the rules, that team has to use her. Good application of rules, IMHO.

I think the coach could have avoided the whole thing by not having the player that he/she was "saving" come out for the second half.

Z
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Old Sat Dec 28, 2002, 03:01pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by RookieDude
originally posted by Jurasic Referee
...or your a$$ is grass!".

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...is that what you've been smokin' "Big Dog"!

Dude


Big dog?

This is more like it!
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Old Sat Dec 28, 2002, 05:25pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman

I think the coach could have avoided the whole thing by not having the player that he/she was "saving" come out for the second half.

Z
This is what he was trying to do, and I required her to come out. That was the whole problem. He shouldn't have played her in the FIRST half, so that he'd have some flexibility in the end.

I wasn't trying to be a [email protected]@, and I didn't want to meddle in the quarters thing. That's why I asked the question, in the first place. Where do we draw the line on our responsibility?? The book implies that if a player is "available", she has to play. Okay, what is available, and when do we enforce it

I suppose looking back over it, I could have said, "Okay, she's sick, that's fine." Then I would have told the opponent coach, who also happened to be the administrator for the tournament, "She's sick so she's not going to play." Then HE could have decided what to do about the varsity game. Is that passing the buck? Is that ducking responsibility? I'm not sure that there are clear guidelines here.

After this game, I went to watch a different tournament, and a vet official I was talking to there said I did exactly right. But there are still a lot of questions. I'd like to see a long discussion about this one, to help sort it out.
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Old Sun Dec 29, 2002, 10:45am
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What if coach just sends that player to the locker room when you tell him she has to play? She is no longer available to play. What can you do then?

I can't see you forcing this player into the game in this situation. The coach wanted and got the two quarters from her that he could have her play and still leave her available for the varsity game. He kept her on the bench to support her teammates and watch the end of the game but never intended to play her. I think she should be allowed to sit with her team even if she will not be playing any more.

The NF rule book is not geared to handle these multiple game, multiple team, total quarters of play eligibility issues because you don't have to deal with them as referees in a single game. And NF does not impose these total quarters of play limits, states do. This causes problems when reconciling a state eligibility provision with the NF rulebook that does not recognize these provisions. Coaches have to deal with balancing both sets of rules, and this coach handled it the way I would. I wouldn't tell my player to go hide or that she couldn't stay with the team in case the ref would force her to play.

Most importantly, by making this girl play you are punishing a varsity player for a JV coach's decision to allow her to stay with her team after her available quarters play had ended. Do you really think that is in the spirit of the NFHS rules? I think your reading of the rule book needs to be tempered with some perspective of what is happening here, and the fact that the rulebook does not account for state policies of this nature.
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