Thoughts on Technical Foul

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If they react that way regularly, then they're getting away with it.

You should probably read more of my posts on this. For some reason known only to God, I was thinking he made the comment fairly loudly.

Fair enough.

Is "that's bad officiating" the same as "you're a bad official?" Not quite, but it's a lot closer to that than it is to "that's a bad call."

Personally, I find "that's a bad call" and "that's bad officiating" to be functionally equivalent. That's the risk a coach takes for saying anything other than "I believe you're wrong."

If said quietly, I'll warn. If said loudly, I'll whack. If somewhere in between, he's risking a T. If he's tried the "ireftoo" junk in this game, well that's just more BS for the accumulation. Note, he's not getting a short leash because he's a ref, he's getting the short leash because he said he's a ref. The only reason to say it is to try to influence the officials; not acceptable.

Except Cat specifically said he didn't identify himself as a ref. I can see a shorter leash for someone you feel has tried to manipulate you, although I personally don't do this.

What's you opinion on a coach who you know is a ref but doesn't bring it up?

Note also, I'm not saying he did this, just elaborating.

Back to "my standard." It's not that he can't disagree or even point it out, but he's not going to show me up with that comment. Like it or not, it's a show-up comment designed to put the officials in their "proper place." What if he'd said, "that's middle school officiating...."?

I don't find it to be a show-me-up comment. If he'd said "that's middle school officiating" I'd either ignore it or say "It is a middle school game."

I readily accept that I tend to be more tolerant of coaches' behaviors than most of this board.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Except Cat specifically said he didn't identify himself as a ref. I can see a shorter leash for someone you feel has tried to manipulate you, although I personally don't do this.

What's you opinion on a coach who you know is a ref but doesn't bring it up?

Yep, and I was just elaborating a bit.

Good question. I'll treat him the same. I may come away with more or less respect for him as an official based on his performance, but I'll treat him as if he's not an official for the duration of that game.

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I don't find it to be a show-me-up comment. If he'd said "that's middle school officiating" I'd either ignore it or say "It is a middle school game."

Fair enough, I can live with simply disagreeing. If he says that loud enough to be heard across the gym, easy T. If only I hear it (not likely if he's walking away from me as in the OP), then I ignore. In between, it'll be at least a warning and maybe a T.

[WreckRef]

Poor game management by the official in my opinion.

As far as the T goes, you should know being an official, that every official has a different threshold when it comes to issuing a T. For example, some might not T for someone saying, "That call was horrible," but would for someone saying, "You are horrible."

As far as the timeout goes I don't see it any different than the situation I had a couple of weeks ago. A1 grabs a defensive rebound and starts bringing the ball up the floor. Coach A calls timeout. As I walk towards the table to report I notice A2 hobbling over to the bench. I ask the coach, "Do you want the timeout or just the sub for your injured player?" Coach says, "Just the sub." I hit the whistle, announce it's an official timeout, tell all of the players to come back on the floor and tell the table to not charge A with a timeout.

Final thought, now you know that you can't ask for a timeout with that official to replace an injured player he didn't see. Next time I would suggest getting the officials attention by saying something like, "Ref, there's an injured player," and point to him/her.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Big2Cat

They had no clue, the people were chasing the ball, and there was a girl down and not moving. The easiest and best way to get her help was so simply yell, "timeout".

Hmmmmm. No player control, it sounds like.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"That's a bad call" isn't, IMO, the same as "that's bad officiating." Disagree if you want, but that's beyond my line. Making the comment, as an official, is risking a T in this situation.

When he says "that's bad officiating," to what does "that" refer?

It refers to the call or the act of making the call. To me, that's not personal, since it's about a single event and not the person of the official.

Of course you can draw your own line, but I think you're making a distinction without a difference here.

[Judtech]

I was going to stay out of this, but since my name was mentioned few time:

I applaud BIG for his efforts to give back to the game. As difficult as it is to find quality officials, it is equally, if not more difficult to find people willing to coach teams. Especially the lower level less glamorous posts like he has.

I applaud BIG for coming on here to get feedback on procedure and input. It is not an easy thing to do and IMO he has handled himself very well.

I applaud BIG for teaching his girls to worry about their own play and not worry about things they can't control.

I applaud BIG for undertaking a difficult position of both someone who coaches and someone who officiates. It is not easy, and is not something a lot of people would want to put themselves through.

I applaud BIG for recognizing and admitting a mistake on his part. Also for looking for and accepting ways in which he can handle similar situations in a better manner. After all, isn't that what this board is supposed to be about?

Finally, I will end the ovation, by saying I appreciate his willingness to come on here and try to put himself in the shoes of the calling official. He asks what it is he would have done and what other officials would have done in similar situation. I would go a step further and try to walk a mile, or at least the length of the coaching box, in his shoes. How would you honestly react?

Since no one, AFAIK has seen him coach, I am not sure we can extrapolate that this is typical behavior for him. Needless to say, I give him the benefit of the doubt since he says it is not. One mistake does not a person make. Who amongst us would like our reputations and abilities judged by one action? Are the NCAA officials we discussed any less compotent b/c of a botched call? Hopefully, the younger/newer officials will learn from the exchange b/c there is a lot of meat here.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Big2Cat

Yeah, it was a bad comment. I was probably talking as an official at that moment and deserved the T.

Also, I do ultimately agree I should be held to a higher standard.

She really did go down pretty hard and wasn't moving. I truly was worried for her which is why I yelled timeout. Her dad came and thanked me after the game.

Anyhow, thanks again. I should have handled it better. I appreciate the people who point out I could have handled it better rather than attacking me. We need to keep each other on course at times and I veered off.

My previous posts in this thread were #4, #8, and #11. The sentiments which I express in those amount to what you wrote in the above post. You have a couple of other posts in this thread in which you write that I attacked you personally. I certainly don't believe that I did. Perhaps you will have the time to review my posts and then if you agree go back and edit yours.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The coach was right about everything, except the way that he conducted himself. Telling an official that a decision is "really bad officiating" is greatly disrespectful and worthy of a technical foul. I'm really disappointed that such would come from someone who wears the stripes himself.

You must call a helluva lot of technical fouls if you call one every time something disrespectful is said.

[deecee]

I dont get why officials who coach are treated different?

I treat a coach as a coach. His past affiliations do not matter per game. His actions during the game will dictate how i interact with him and how i deal with him as well.

I dont give anyone credit that just because they know the rules and have worn the stripes that all of a sudden they will be logical and calm when they had a stake directly in the outcome of the game.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You must call a helluva lot of technical fouls if you call one every time something disrespectful is said.

Actually, most of the coaches know not to behave in such a manner when I am on the court at this point and so I have very few instances of disrepectful comments and the result is only a few technical fouls. It certainly makes the working environment more pleasant.

[BillyMac]

Little kid's game. During clock stopped, dead ball, little kid says, "Time out. Time out. I need to tie my shoe". You going to charge a time out? Same thing in high school subvarsity game? Varsity game?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Little kid's game. During clock stopped, dead ball, little kid says, "Time out. Time out. I need to tie my shoe". You going to charge a time out? Same thing in high school subvarsity game? Varsity game?

Nope. I'm going to report two timeouts. And if there's an excessive timeout, that's a T.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Little kid's game. During clock stopped, dead ball, little kid says, "Time out. Time out. I need to tie my shoe". You going to charge a time out? Same thing in high school subvarsity game? Varsity game?

In all likelihood, I wouldn't charge timeout in either case as I would be withholding making the ball live until the shoelace was tied. I know for sure I wouldn't charge one in little kids ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

I dont get why officials who coach are treated different?

I treat a coach as a coach. His past affiliations do not matter per game. His actions during the game will dictate how i interact with him and how i deal with him as well.

I dont give anyone credit that just because they know the rules and have worn the stripes that all of a sudden they will be logical and calm when they had a stake directly in the outcome of the game.

You ought to consider re-reading what I wrote.

He doesn't get a higher standard because he's a ref. He gets a higher standard because he told me he's a ref (hypothetically). There's only one reason, during a game, to tell me he's a ref; and it's not a good one.

As I said before, if I know he's a ref and he never says it, then the standard is the same as for his coaching behavior. My respect for him as an official is a different story, however.

[Welpe]

I'd like to point out...again...that in addition to what Snaques () said, the "higher standard" I speak of is NOT about how the coach is treated on the court.

I acknowledge I came on a little strong and it seems that we are more or less on the same page. I was surprised that a fellow official would be surprised that he is held to a higher standard of conduct by his fellow officials OFF the court. Clearly it seems that is where the misunderstanding lies.

Despite the attempts of some posters here, I'm not trying to crucify B2C and blindly support anybody. I'm also not calling him a bad human being or saying what he does "FOR THE KIDS!!!" is a bad thing either.