Is there such an animal as a False Multiple Technical?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just confirming. I was confused by an earlier post:

Why was that confusing? The NFHS has made it clear that players are not "participating" for purposes of this rule when the ball is dead and the clock isn't running.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Why was that confusing? The NFHS has made it clear that players are not "participating" for purposes of this rule when the ball is dead and the clock isn't running.

Citation please?

NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously

10.1.6 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6
properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock
shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in,
the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the
clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following
the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had
six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge
that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected
prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it
was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time
had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Question: Head coach of Team A requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he complains to the officials that Team B has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six team members walking off the court into their timeout huddle (Please note that in 10.1.6 SITUATION (b) the officials were not aware of the additional player until after time expires, which, to me, means the same as an intermission, when all team members are bench personnel).

Ruling on my timeout situation?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Citation please?

NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously

Well, how about the mechanic that says we count the players before putting the ball in play, and if there are 6 (or more), we fix the problem rather than call the T? Granted, this is more about practice than rule, but the practice is pretty much universal; if the NFHS wanted it done differently, they would issue an edict (sort of like the end of game/shirt off scenario).

I was going to use case 10.1.6, but in that one the game is over rather than just stopped.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I was going to use case 10.1.6, but in that one the game is over rather than just stopped.

Just use R10-1-6PENALTY(Art6). It's straight-forward, no matter how confused Billy is with it.

ART. 6- "Penalized if discovered while being violated."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Citation please?

NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously

10.1.6 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6
properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock
shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in,
the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the
clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following
the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had
six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge
that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected
prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it
was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time
had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Question: Head coach of Team a requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he complains to the officials that Team B has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six team members walking off the court into their timeout huddle (Please note that in 10.1.6 SITUATION (b) the officials were not aware of the additional player until after time expires, which, to me, means the same as an intermission, when all team members are bench personnel). Ruling on my timeout situation?

You just answered your own question AGAIN. Under 10.1.6(b), there is no technical foul issued. Under rule 10-1-6PENALTY(Art 6), you can't issue "T" as it wasn't discovered while being violated.

Casebook play 10.1.6Sit(a) illustrates the same point. In that situation, you can issue a "T" because it was discovered while being violated i.e. the clock running. The officials just couldn't get the clock stopped in time. Hell, a better nit for you to pick might be why they don't put time back on the clock in 10.1.6Sit(a) IF they have definite knowledge of how much to put back on.

Lah me, Billy, you know all that. It's pretty damn straight-forward. Why look for reasons to confuse the newbies?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's pretty damn straight-forward. Why look for reasons to confuse the newbies?

In 10.1.6 SITUATION (b), the game has ended, and, like an intermission, all team members are considered bench personnel, and therefore, not players, and therefore not "participating". That's why a technical foul can't be charged.

In my hypothetical situation, in which a timeout has been requested, and granted, the sixth "player" may still be participating? Or, is he? He's not a player, because, by definition, there are only five players. He's not bench personnel, because he was just playing in the game. He's in some kind of basketball team member limbo? Thus my question. If the officials observe this sixth team member walking off the court into the timeout huddle, is it too late to charge a technical foul?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In 10.1.6 SITUATION (b), the game has ended, and, like an intermission, all team members are considered bench personnel, and therefore, not players, and therefore not "participating". That's why a technical foul can't be charged.

In my hypothetical situation, in which a timeout has been requested, and granted, the sixth "player" may still be participating? Or, is he? He's not a player, because, by definition, there are only five players. He's not bench personnel, because he was just playing in the game. He's in some kind of basketball team member limbo? Thus my question. If the officials observe this sixth team member walking off the court into the timeout huddle, is it too late to charge a technical foul?

Yes, you've seen a player walking off the court. You have no idea when or how he got on. He could be coming back from getting a drink, or congratulating a teammate, or....

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Why was that confusing? The NFHS has made it clear that players are not "participating" for purposes of this rule when the ball is dead and the clock isn't running.

Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, official observes that Team A (still) has six team members participating. Ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. Too late to penalize with a technical foul?

Note to Snaqwells, and Jurassic Referee: I'm "hung up" on the word "participating". Please be patient with me for a few more posts, and then send me to my room without supper.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, official observes that Team A (still) has six team members participating. Ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. Too late to penalize with a technical foul?

Yes, you don't know who came on last. You don't know when he came on. Best you can do is talk to the table and see if they saw him run on w/o being beckoned.

He's no more participating than the players when you normally count. You're overthinking this.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yes, you don't know who came on last. .

Don't have to know who came on last, it's a team technical, not a player technical.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Don't have to know who came on last, it's a team technical, not a player technical.

My point was the team tech isn't an option, only the sub tech if you know who.

You didn't see them participating. You saw them standing on the court.

Billy, come on. It's the same as every other time we count the players. Count them, if there are too many, fix it. It's how it's handled everywhere, and if they wanted it different they would have told us a long time ago.

[Adam]

And the point of the case play is that you can't go back and call the T retroactively, even if you think you know he had to be participating when the ball was live. If you didn't see it, you can't call it.

[BillyMac]

Snaqwells: Thanks for your patience. Not only am I still caught up on the definition of participating, but I'm also having trouble with your dead ball, clock running, post.

Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. First free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. Dead ball. Clock stopped. Are all six players participating at this point? Can a technical be charged at this point, or do we just send off the extra player?

Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. First free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. Live ball. Clock stopped. Are all six players participating at this point? Can a technical be charged at this point, or do we just send off the extra player?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Snaqwells: Thanks for your patience. Not only am I still caught up on the definition of participating, but I'm also having trouble with your dead ball, clock running, post.

Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. First free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. Are all six players participating at this point? Can a technical be charged at this point, or do we just send off the extra player?

send him off. Unless you're going to say he was participating. If you say that, you need to call the T when you count 6 prior to a throw-in.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, official observes that Team A (still) has six team members participating. Ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. Too late to penalize with a technical foul?

WTF does NFHS rule 10-1-6PENALTY(Art 6) say?

And why won't you believe it?

As I said, lah...freaking...me.....