2011 Tournament Discussion Redux

[APG]

Originally Posted by biz

This is an extreme parallel example, but what if an official called a 5-second closely guarded violation without making any arm swings but he says that he counted to 5 in his head? IMO, while the violation might be the correct call the official has made a grave mistake in mechanics. We have mechanics for consistency and clarity and it's important for us as officials to be mechanically sound.

I would say this situation is even worse. If we didn't swing in this situation, the coach and player would assume a player wasn't within the required distance. I also agree that Adams has failed to talk about the mechanics of the play. You can say you counted to five, but when you're required to show your count to five and the tape doesn't support it, it's hard to support you.

[jophyal]

I agree with the mechanics angle. If the call was made and mechanics were proper, a referee could state that. Hiding behind 80% rule, making up rules, and/or guessing short changes us all. Players, fans, officials, etc... would be better served if the calling official made a statement and stuck by it. Jim Joyce made a call, stated it was the best call he could make, and took his medicine like a MAN. Why is it so hard to admit that we, as officials, kick one every now and then. The ego of some of these Confereneces and officials is exactly why people are clammering for instant replay and gaining ground. Look at NFL's rule change yesterday concerning all scores being able to be reviewed without challenges. Just sayin'...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jophyal

Jim Joyce made a call, stated it was the best call he could make, and took his medicine like a MAN. Why is it so hard to admit that we, as officials, kick one every now and then. The ego of some of these Confereneces and officials is exactly why people are clammering for instant replay and gaining ground. Look at NFL's rule change yesterday concerning all scores being able to be reviewed without challenges. Just sayin'...

And afaik Dick Cartmell honestly believed he made the correct call on this play as per his own personal 5-second count. Do you know something different that we don't know?

It was a judgment call. Officials are human, not robots. Do you honestly believe there is any mechanic anywhere that would make every D1 official's count come out to exactly 5.0 seconds every single time?

Instead of questioning Cartmell's judgment on one particular call, you chose instead to indict his character for not admitting a possible mistake in judgment. Well, that's just wrong imo.

Just saying...

[Jay R]

Jim Joyce made the call he thought was correct. He say the replay and admitted that he missed it.

Cartmell made the call he thought was correct. I'm assuming he's since seen the replay that shows he never got to 5 seconds. He has not admitted to his mistake.

That's the difference.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jay R

Cartmell made the call he thought was correct. I'm assuming he's since seen the replay that shows he never got to 5 seconds. He has not admitted to his mistake.

And you know that....how?

Afaik the NCAA tries to keep anything like that in-house.

[jophyal]

why do they try to keep it "in house"? I am not indicting anyone. I am making a point. If you do not agree, that is your choice. I never insinuateed that there is a perfect 5 count. However, if you can't count to five or know you are between four and five, that is an issue. My point of contingency was that instead of saying that was HIS five count and leave it at that, we have people coming up with guesses as to whether there is still a rule disallowing a player to call timeout between four and five seconds. The NCAA just admitted that there was a mistake in the Syracuse game... was that kept in house? I read, on this site, all the complaints of coaches and fans hollering about "over the back" fouls aand the fact there is no for for that. But when another official asks about a non exixtent rule concerning the granting of a timeout, it's different because you feel like we are puting a fellow official in the grease. I have yet to hearor read anything concerning the ball being handed to player instead of tossed. What about that mechanic? has anyone factored that into his count?

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And you know that....how?

Afaik the NCAA tries to keep anything like that in-house.

Do you mean that he has not admitted his mistake. Not publicly. If Joyce had admitted his mistake only to his superiors, he would not have had the support he did form the public.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jay R

Do you mean that he has not admitted his mistake. Not publicly. If Joyce had admitted his mistake only to his superiors, he would not have had the support he did form the public.

So? It's not like he cost the kid a perfect game. It's not like he took away a touchdown or even a FT. He called a violation, for crying out loud. The kid knew it was close, but do you really think he had his own count or was watching the official's arm swing? No. He waited just a hair too long to request the TO.

Good grief.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jophyal

why do they try to keep it "in house"? I am not indicting anyone. I am making a point. If you do not agree, that is your choice. I never insinuateed that there is a perfect 5 count. However, if you can't count to five or know you are between four and five, that is an issue. My point of contingency was that instead of saying that was HIS five count and leave it at that, we have people coming up with guesses as to whether there is still a rule disallowing a player to call timeout between four and five seconds. The NCAA just admitted that there was a mistake in the Syracuse game... was that kept in house? I read, on this site, all the complaints of coaches and fans hollering about "over the back" fouls aand the fact there is no for for that. But when another official asks about a non exixtent rule concerning the granting of a timeout, it's different because you feel like we are puting a fellow official in the grease. I have yet to hearor read anything concerning the ball being handed to player instead of tossed. What about that mechanic? has anyone factored that into his count?

Pretty sure the consensus here was that there's no longer such a rule. That part wasn't questioned much.

I'm really not sure what the rest means.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by jophyal

... The NCAA just admitted that there was a mistake in the Syracuse game... was that kept in house? ...

Difference being that the Syracuse mistake was a mis-application of the rules. Cartmell's call was a judgement call. We've all seen the replay and have our opinion about Cartmell's mechanics (and I believe he should have granted a TO) but it still comes down to whether or not Cartmell felt he reached 5 before the player requested a timeout. All the rest of us are doing is speculating.

There is no speculation that the backcourt call was wrong, it's a fact, and it's been acknowledged.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Difference being that the Syracuse mistake was a mis-application of the rules. Cartmell's call was a judgement call. We've all seen the replay and have our opinion about Cartmell's mechanics (and I believe he should have granted a TO) but it still comes down to whether or not Cartmell felt he reached 5 before the player requested a timeout. All the rest of us are doing is speculating.

There is no speculation that the backcourt call was wrong, it's a fact, and it's been acknowledged.

Of course, if they'd called a travel in the 'Cuse game, it would have been the correct call.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Of course, if they'd called a travel in the 'Cuse game, it would have been the correct call.

But even that would have been a judgement call. Some on here think Jardine didn't have control of the ball immediately.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Of course, if they'd called a travel in the 'Cuse game, it would have been the correct call.

Pudding stirer!

In a conversation with an official who WILL be working this weekend. I think they made some good points:
If we are going by an officials "judgement" on obvious timing situations (not 3 sec) then why have a visible count? Why not just count to ourselves? No one is agruing that our visible count is precise. What it DOES do is show a visible representation of what our 'timing judgement' is by swinging our arms. Some do it faster then others, but that is THEIR judgement. It also gives an empirical record of how much we have counted, ie. the video.

I remember a few years ago at a camp a person I worked with made a 3 second call. The evaluator took us to the film room and we must have spent 20 minutes on that one play. The official would not admit that it was about 2 seconds. The point the evaluator was trying to make was we need to be extra special certain and give the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. I of course was happy b/c I absolutely BLEW a rebounding foul and we didn't have time to discuss it!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by biz

Adams' explaination does not go into the mechanics of making the 5-second call without 5 arm swings.

Interesting point except that his arm with up halfway through the 5th swing....which is exactly the point the violation should occur. The big problem was that his first swing occur much less than 1 second after the player got the ball....that is where they player was shorted.

[ILRef80]

Originally Posted by jophyal

I agree with the mechanics angle. If the call was made and mechanics were proper, a referee could state that. Hiding behind 80% rule, making up rules, and/or guessing short changes us all. Players, fans, officials, etc... would be better served if the calling official made a statement and stuck by it. Jim Joyce made a call, stated it was the best call he could make, and took his medicine like a MAN. Why is it so hard to admit that we, as officials, kick one every now and then. The ego of some of these Confereneces and officials is exactly why people are clammering for instant replay and gaining ground. Look at NFL's rule change yesterday concerning all scores being able to be reviewed without challenges. Just sayin'...

+1. We are humans and we can make mistakes. I think everyone understands that. It just hurts our credibility when we fail to admit a mistake.

Cartmell is an excellent official. This blown call doesn't change that. But, c'mon, in a game and spot of that magnitude, your arm swings have to match your count. It's really that simple, IMO. I think he may have gotten caught up in the moment...who knows? It happens. But, that doesn't change the fact that a mistake was probably made.