2011 Tournament Discussion Redux

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Difference being that the Syracuse mistake was a mis-application of the rules. Cartmell's call was a judgement call. We've all seen the replay and have our opinion about Cartmell's mechanics (and I believe he should have granted a TO) but it still comes down to whether or not Cartmell felt he reached 5 before the player requested a timeout. All the rest of us are doing is speculating.

There is no speculation that the backcourt call was wrong, it's a fact, and it's been acknowledged.

Of course, if they'd called a travel in the 'Cuse game, it would have been the correct call.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Of course, if they'd called a travel in the 'Cuse game, it would have been the correct call.

But even that would have been a judgement call. Some on here think Jardine didn't have control of the ball immediately.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Of course, if they'd called a travel in the 'Cuse game, it would have been the correct call.

Pudding stirer!

In a conversation with an official who WILL be working this weekend. I think they made some good points:
If we are going by an officials "judgement" on obvious timing situations (not 3 sec) then why have a visible count? Why not just count to ourselves? No one is agruing that our visible count is precise. What it DOES do is show a visible representation of what our 'timing judgement' is by swinging our arms. Some do it faster then others, but that is THEIR judgement. It also gives an empirical record of how much we have counted, ie. the video.

I remember a few years ago at a camp a person I worked with made a 3 second call. The evaluator took us to the film room and we must have spent 20 minutes on that one play. The official would not admit that it was about 2 seconds. The point the evaluator was trying to make was we need to be extra special certain and give the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. I of course was happy b/c I absolutely BLEW a rebounding foul and we didn't have time to discuss it!

[rulesmaven]

Originally Posted by Judtech

In a conversation with an official who WILL be working this weekend. I think they made some good points:
If we are going by an officials "judgement" on obvious timing situations (not 3 sec) then why have a visible count? Why not just count to ourselves? No one is agruing that our visible count is precise. What it DOES do is show a visible representation of what our 'timing judgement' is by swinging our arms. Some do it faster then others, but that is THEIR judgement. It also gives an empirical record of how much we have counted, ie. the video.

This seems like a good insight. If you're going to swing, you have to assume players or coaches are relying on the swing. Otherwise, why do it?

The place where it seems to me most weird is after a made basket where there's a shot clock. What if the swinging isn't commensurate with the clock? If an official swings 10 when the clock shows 26, can he call a violation? Or not call on where the clock shows 24 because he hadn't swung 10? If they are going to swing, it should matter. And the swing seems to me to objectify a judgment based decision.

Anyway, on the Syracuse backcourt, has anyone other than Adams said anything? I still have some hope that this was actually a missed judgment call. Is it possible that he thought Jardine's right heel touched the backcourt line after the step (in other words, he didn't call the violation on the foot originally touching the line, but on the mistaken view that it touched the line after he'd established back in the front court)? It was very very close to the heel touching. If it was a rules goof, to me, for all the discussion of the tournament so far, that's the one that is most surprising. In fact in my memory it's almost unprecedented -- I just can't remember another rules misapplication that basic at that level. I think there was a hockey official in the NHL this year who called a delay of game for the goalkeeper playing the puck outside of the "trapazoid" who forgot that the penalty can not be called if the player's skates are in the crease. But other than those two, I just don't remember a call like it, if it wasn't a judgment call, which makes me think maybe he knew the rule but thought he saw something that didn't happen.