Over and back rule

[stiffler3492]

By the way dbm, check your PM inbox, upper right hand corner.

[dbking]

If the call was against IU, then correct call. If for IU, obviously incorrect call.

Great to have the brooms out on Wednesday night.....

I will tell you that this is all a matter of HTBT. If the official determines that the tip was a controlled tip in the direction of the player, then it should be a b/c violation. If it is truely just a tap of the ball with zero direction control, then no b/c violation.

Assembly Hall has a long history of incidents. Just ask Steve Reid about the chair.....

BOILER UP!

[APG]

Originally Posted by dbking

If the call was against IU, then correct call. If for IU, obviously incorrect call.

Great to have the brooms out on Wednesday night.....

I will tell you that this is all a matter of HTBT. If the official determines that the tip was a controlled tip in the direction of the player, then it should be a b/c violation. If it is truely just a tap of the ball with zero direction control, then no b/c violation.

Assembly Hall has a long history of incidents. Just ask Steve Reid about the chair.....

BOILER UP!

Controlled tip does not equate to team control which is gained by HOLDING or dribbling the ball.

[NoFussRef]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Controlled tip does not equate to team control which is gained by HOLDING or dribbling the ball.

While I agree with your point here...

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball. Even if momentarily (splitting atoms here), If a player rotates their hand to direct a tap would you consider this holding the ball? If a player does this while dribbling we call it a "carry".

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

While I agree with your point here...

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball. Even if momentarily (splitting atoms here), If a player rotates their hand to direct a tap would you consider this holding the ball? If a player does this while dribbling we call it a "carry".

If you would grant a timeout during said "control", then you've determined that there was player control. If there's player control, then there's team control.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

If you would grant a timeout during said "control", then you've determined that there was player control. If there's player control, then there's team control.

Circular logic. We've got to break this circle. It's been going on for far too long. Time for the NFHS to define "holding". They've defined just about everything else that occurs in the game.

Grant a timeout? Yes, if player is holding ball.
Player holding ball? Yes, if you would grant a timeout.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Circular logic. We've got to break this circle. It's been going on for far too long. Time for the NFHS to define "holding". They've defined just about everything else that occurs in the game.

What part of "the ball comes to rest" can't you understand, Billy? You know...rules 4-15-4(a) and 4-15-4(b)?

Now you're creating your very own Myth.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Circular logic. We've got to break this circle. It's been going on for far too long. Time for the NFHS to define "holding". They've defined just about everything else that occurs in the game.

Grant a timeout? Yes, if player is holding ball.
Player holding ball? Yes, if you would grant a timeout.

Perhaps you just think WAY too hard about this. The NFHS doesn't need to define every little single thing.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

While I agree with your point here...

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball. Even if momentarily (splitting atoms here), If a player rotates their hand to direct a tap would you consider this holding the ball? If a player does this while dribbling we call it a "carry".

These are the key words. If you say the player is not holding the ball, than how can you call it player control, by rule?

In your second example, "rotating the hand" has no basis in the rules. If, however, while dribbling the ball the ball comes to rest in the hand, than you would consider that holding the ball, and thus any additional dribble would be an illegal dribble.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

While I agree with your point here...

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball. Even if momentarily (splitting atoms here), If a player rotates their hand to direct a tap would you consider this holding the ball? If a player does this while dribbling we call it a "carry".

You're allowed to "bat the ball away from other players" (or some such wording) without it establishing PC, and that seems to be the same as "controlling the direction of a tip/tap".

There's a difference between that and "throwing" the ball.

Sometimes you just need to officiate.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball. Even if momentarily (splitting atoms here), If a player rotates their hand to direct a tap would you consider this holding the ball? If a player does this while dribbling we call it a "carry".

It's always a judgment call if player control is established on a tip. If the ball comes to rest in the official's judgment, then player control and thus team control are established. What isn't part of the judgment EVER is the direction in which the ball is tipped. That is completely irrelevant rules-wise, no matter how many atoms you split. Whether the hand was rotated or not is also completely irrelevant.

All that matters is whether the ball came to rest or not.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

While I agree with your point here...

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball. Even if momentarily (splitting atoms here), If a player rotates their hand to direct a tap would you consider this holding the ball? If a player does this while dribbling we call it a "carry".

Absolutely, one can control the direction of a tip/tap without holding the ball. In fact, the whole sport of volleyball is built around controlling a ball by tipping, tapping and striking a ball without ever holding it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

The whole sport of volleyball is built around controlling a ball by tipping, tapping and striking a ball without ever holding it.

Good point. How does the NHFS define holding (going way back to my high school physical education classes: holding is illegal) in the volleyball rules?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

While I agree with your point here...

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball. Even if momentarily (splitting atoms here), If a player rotates their hand to direct a tap would you consider this holding the ball? If a player does this while dribbling we call it a "carry".

We call the carry when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand, which is virtually the same way we determine if they held it.

If, however, a dribbler taps the ball upwards, this is perfectly legal as long as it hits the floor before the dribbler touches the ball again. It's perfectly possible for a player to "control" a tap to a teammate (or away from an opponent) without ever gaining player control. Whether the ball goes where it was intended to go is not relevant.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball.

Of course you can. What happens on every jump ball to start every game??? The two jumpers try to bat the ball in a certain direction. They're not just flailing away, hoping to make contact. They're trying (or at least, hoping) to direct to a teammate.

But they obviously are not allowed to hold the ball; that would be a violation.