Over and back rule

[dbmcubs21]

I'm fairly certain about the big ten game, It was an IU game I was at and I complained about the call at the time but decided in my head it must have been correct because as you said a Big Ten official wouldn't miss that. I guess he felt that the player had enough control of the ball that he "threw/passed" it back out.

[stiffler3492]

Originally Posted by dbmcubs21

I'm fairly certain about the big ten game, It was an IU game I was at and I complained about the call at the time but decided in my head it must have been correct because as you said a Big Ten official wouldn't miss that. I guess he felt that the player had enough control of the ball that he "threw/passed" it back out.

That's the only thing that comes to mind.

[stiffler3492]

By the way dbm, check your PM inbox, upper right hand corner.

[dbking]

If the call was against IU, then correct call. If for IU, obviously incorrect call.

Great to have the brooms out on Wednesday night.....

I will tell you that this is all a matter of HTBT. If the official determines that the tip was a controlled tip in the direction of the player, then it should be a b/c violation. If it is truely just a tap of the ball with zero direction control, then no b/c violation.

Assembly Hall has a long history of incidents. Just ask Steve Reid about the chair.....

BOILER UP!

[APG]

Originally Posted by dbking

If the call was against IU, then correct call. If for IU, obviously incorrect call.

Great to have the brooms out on Wednesday night.....

I will tell you that this is all a matter of HTBT. If the official determines that the tip was a controlled tip in the direction of the player, then it should be a b/c violation. If it is truely just a tap of the ball with zero direction control, then no b/c violation.

Assembly Hall has a long history of incidents. Just ask Steve Reid about the chair.....

BOILER UP!

Controlled tip does not equate to team control which is gained by HOLDING or dribbling the ball.

[NoFussRef]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Controlled tip does not equate to team control which is gained by HOLDING or dribbling the ball.

While I agree with your point here...

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball. Even if momentarily (splitting atoms here), If a player rotates their hand to direct a tap would you consider this holding the ball? If a player does this while dribbling we call it a "carry".

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

While I agree with your point here...

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball. Even if momentarily (splitting atoms here), If a player rotates their hand to direct a tap would you consider this holding the ball? If a player does this while dribbling we call it a "carry".

If you would grant a timeout during said "control", then you've determined that there was player control. If there's player control, then there's team control.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

While I agree with your point here...

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball. Even if momentarily (splitting atoms here), If a player rotates their hand to direct a tap would you consider this holding the ball? If a player does this while dribbling we call it a "carry".

These are the key words. If you say the player is not holding the ball, than how can you call it player control, by rule?

In your second example, "rotating the hand" has no basis in the rules. If, however, while dribbling the ball the ball comes to rest in the hand, than you would consider that holding the ball, and thus any additional dribble would be an illegal dribble.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

While I agree with your point here...

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball. Even if momentarily (splitting atoms here), If a player rotates their hand to direct a tap would you consider this holding the ball? If a player does this while dribbling we call it a "carry".

You're allowed to "bat the ball away from other players" (or some such wording) without it establishing PC, and that seems to be the same as "controlling the direction of a tip/tap".

There's a difference between that and "throwing" the ball.

Sometimes you just need to officiate.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball. Even if momentarily (splitting atoms here), If a player rotates their hand to direct a tap would you consider this holding the ball? If a player does this while dribbling we call it a "carry".

It's always a judgment call if player control is established on a tip. If the ball comes to rest in the official's judgment, then player control and thus team control are established. What isn't part of the judgment EVER is the direction in which the ball is tipped. That is completely irrelevant rules-wise, no matter how many atoms you split. Whether the hand was rotated or not is also completely irrelevant.

All that matters is whether the ball came to rest or not.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

While I agree with your point here...

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball. Even if momentarily (splitting atoms here), If a player rotates their hand to direct a tap would you consider this holding the ball? If a player does this while dribbling we call it a "carry".

Absolutely, one can control the direction of a tip/tap without holding the ball. In fact, the whole sport of volleyball is built around controlling a ball by tipping, tapping and striking a ball without ever holding it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

While I agree with your point here...

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball. Even if momentarily (splitting atoms here), If a player rotates their hand to direct a tap would you consider this holding the ball? If a player does this while dribbling we call it a "carry".

We call the carry when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand, which is virtually the same way we determine if they held it.

If, however, a dribbler taps the ball upwards, this is perfectly legal as long as it hits the floor before the dribbler touches the ball again. It's perfectly possible for a player to "control" a tap to a teammate (or away from an opponent) without ever gaining player control. Whether the ball goes where it was intended to go is not relevant.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

One could question whether a player could "control the direction of a tip/tap"- without holding the ball.

Of course you can. What happens on every jump ball to start every game??? The two jumpers try to bat the ball in a certain direction. They're not just flailing away, hoping to make contact. They're trying (or at least, hoping) to direct to a teammate.

But they obviously are not allowed to hold the ball; that would be a violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by dbking

If the official determines that the tip was a controlled tip in the direction of the player, then it should be a b/c violation. If it is truely just a tap of the ball with zero direction control, then no b/c violation.

As APG said, that's completely wrong by rule. The criteria needed to make the correct call is whether there was player control established or not...i.e if the ball came to rest. No player control = no team control. What direction the ball is tapped in has got nothing to do with the call rules-wise.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by dbking

If the call was against IU, then correct call. If for IU, obviously incorrect call.

Great to have the brooms out on Wednesday night.....

I will tell you that this is all a matter of HTBT. If the official determines that the tip was a controlled tip in the direction of the player, then it should be a b/c violation. If it is truely just a tap of the ball with zero direction control, then no b/c violation.

Assembly Hall has a long history of incidents. Just ask Steve Reid about the chair.....

BOILER UP!

Yeah, like hanging all those National Championship Banners............