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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 02:22pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Ah, now you're defining it in a way that's meaningful (and therefore debatable), and where I thought you were heading. The vast majority of scholastic athletic budges of which I'm aware are indeed general-budget-funded and therefore, in your definition, not self-supporting.

I'm willing to bet this is the case with most colleges as well. Athletic budgets will necessarily drain funds from the general budget that would be used for other things.
I'll take this bet (and win running away). At the collegiate level, football is a money-maker that pays for all the other athletics.

There a significant difference between scholastic athletic budgets (which I agree are not for the most part self-supporting) and most amateur athletic budgets of which scholastic athletics are a significant part but also include the innumerable baseball, basketball, soccer, football, etc leagues that exist.

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1. I missed the question mark on what was grammatically written as a statement. Fair enough.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 02:22pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Very few amateur athletic programs anywhere are self-supporting by any meaningful definition of the word.
Been to a high school football game in Texas or Florida lately...they are absolutely self-supporting. May not be the norm, but they generate a LOT of money.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 02:31pm
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Originally Posted by rockyroad View Post
Been to a high school football game in Texas or Florida lately...they are absolutely self-supporting. May not be the norm, but they generate a LOT of money.
This is why Football was not included in the reduction of games recommended and nearly imposed by the FHSAA until a girl's parent got involved. I don't think boys basketball is self-supporting, either, based on the attendance I have seen at most games. At least here, when soccer of both genders, basketball of both genders and other events seem to be scheduled on the same nights.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 02:33pm
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Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
I'll take this bet (and win running away). At the collegiate level, football is a money-maker that pays for all the other athletics.
I think the idea that more than half of the colleges in the country earn enough money from their 2 major men's sports to support the entire athletic budget is a fallacy. Even assuming the top 20 teams can do that (which I don't assume), that's not even close to 50% of Division 1 colleges. Add to that the large number of Division 2, 3, and NAIA schools, and you're going to lose this bet with force before you limp away.

Unless you think schools like Iowa State, Northwestern, Colorado State, New Mexico, etc., are somehow able to keep their athletic programs self-sustaining, you're going to lose the bet even if we keep it to the FBS schools.

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Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
There a significant difference between scholastic athletic budgets (which I agree are not for the most part self-supporting) and most amateur athletic budgets of which scholastic athletics are a significant part but also include the innumerable baseball, basketball, soccer, football, etc leagues that exist.
For the record, I'm not suggesting any of these football programs aren't self-sustaining at the D1 level. They may well be, but to suggest that the football and basketball revenue at Iowa State is able to support the expenditures of all sports is incorrect at best.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 02:34pm
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Originally Posted by rockyroad View Post
Been to a high school football game in Texas or Florida lately...they are absolutely self-supporting. May not be the norm, but they generate a LOT of money.
The football teams can probably support the football teams in those states, but I doubt they're able to support the rest of the sports at these schools as well.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 02:48pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
The football teams can probably support the football teams in those states, but I doubt they're able to support the rest of the sports at these schools as well.
My younger brother played HS football and had a trip to Masillon, OH. There he learned that the football team was essentially the student council. Because of the money they brought in, they had a large voice in how money was dispersed - by helping purchase uniforms, etc, for other sports.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 02:49pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
I think the idea that more than half of the colleges in the country earn enough money from their 2 major men's sports to support the entire athletic budget is a fallacy. Even assuming the top 20 teams can do that (which I don't assume), that's not even close to 50% of Division 1 colleges. Add to that the large number of Division 2, 3, and NAIA schools, and you're going to lose this bet with force before you limp away.

Unless you think schools like Iowa State, Northwestern, Colorado State, New Mexico, etc., are somehow able to keep their athletic programs self-sustaining, you're going to lose the bet even if we keep it to the FBS schools.



For the record, I'm not suggesting any of these football programs aren't self-sustaining at the D1 level. They may well be, but to suggest that the football and basketball revenue at Iowa State is able to support the expenditures of all sports is incorrect at best.
Now, I'm just dying to know. Does anyone have any idea of how to track this down?
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Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 02:51pm
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Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
Now, I'm just dying to know. Does anyone have any idea of how to track this down?
Maybe there is a stat guy or table guy or something...
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 02:51pm
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Now, I'm just dying to know. Does anyone have any idea of how to track this down?
Are you looking for football programs in FBS? Or Athletic departments in general?
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 02:51pm
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Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
My younger brother played HS football and had a trip to Masillon, OH. There he learned that the football team was essentially the student council. Because of the money they brought in, they had a large voice in how money was dispersed - by helping purchase uniforms, etc, for other sports.
Again, I'm not saying there aren't exceptions. But even this statement, "by helping purchase..." assumes funds were coming from elsewhere and the football revenue was a help.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 02:57pm
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Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
Are you looking for football programs in FBS? Or Athletic departments in general?
We'd need to see the Statement of Activities for the whole athletic department with enough breakdown in the revenue section to be sure whether there are any transfers from the school's general budget.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 02:58pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Again, I'm not saying there aren't exceptions. But even this statement, "by helping purchase..." assumes funds were coming from elsewhere and the football revenue was a help.
I'd go so far to say the exception at the high school level would be self-supporting departments.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 03:03pm
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Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
We'd need to see the Statement of Activities for the whole athletic department with enough breakdown in the revenue section to be sure whether there are any transfers from the school's general budget.
This site can be used to find the budgets and breakdown of most colleges. Data is disclosed by virtue of the Equity in Athletics Disclosure Act.

Equity in Athletics Data Analysis Cutting Tool
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Last edited by APG; Tue Feb 15, 2011 at 03:08pm.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 03:23pm
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Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
This site can be used to find the budgets and breakdown of most colleges. Data is disclosed by virtue of the Equity in Athletics Disclosure Act.

Equity in Athletics Data Analysis Cutting Tool
Thanks, unfortunately, this report is not in enough detail to determine the level of "institutional support" as they put it as there's one line for revenue "Not Allocated by Gender/Sport" which would include this item if it exists.

Interestingly though, the University of Iowa ran a "profit" in it's athletic department of $14.3 million for the 09-10 year. The men's teams ran at a $26.9 million profit and the women's teams ran at a $10.3 million loss (not counting indirect expenses). The football team brought in $45.85 million in revenue out of $58 million total allocated revenue. There was also $30.5 million non-allocated revenue.

I'd say my side of the bet is looking good, but this is in no way determinative.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 15, 2011, 03:27pm
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This USA Today article from 2008 quotes a study suggesting that only 19 of 119 FBS athletic departments broke even or made money. In addition, only 67 of the 119 FBS schools even broke even on football, let alone having the football team subsidize the rest of the athletic department. I'm going to guess that most, if not all, FCS, DII, DIII and NAIA athletic departments draw funds from their schools general budget.

Few athletics programs in black; most need aid - USATODAY.com

Snaqs is right about Iowa State. Because of the state of Iowa's general budget crisis, the Iowa Board of Regents has instructed all three state schools to eliminate general budget expenditures for athletics. U of Iowa achieved the feat in 2007, Iowa State is getting very close, but Northern Iowa doesn't have a realistic chance.

Regents approve modest funding cut to UNI athletics | Des Moines Register Staff Blogs
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