kicking at the ball

[Troward]

Situation in a youth Rec game last night where 6'2 A1 recieves the ball on the blocks for a sure basket when he drops the ball. Defender 5'7 B1 kicks the ball intentionally as A1 is bending down to pick it up. A1 is pissed off as B1 could have kicked his fingers and says that is "F***in unsportsmanlike to be kicking at my fingers". B1 replies sincerely "that he just made a great defensive play by saving a lay up if A1 had picked up the ball."

I felt the play was potentially dangerous but did not know of any rule to T up B1 and so I just called it a violation for the kick and ignored cursing b/c I felt A1 was in the right. Eventually rough play escalated between these two and resulted in their ejection for fighting. In retrospect maybe a double technical at the time would have prevented the fight, but what would have been the grounds against A1? (B1 for swearing)

any ideas for this situation?

thanks
GTW

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Troward
Situation in a youth Rec game last night where 6'2 A1 recieves the ball on the blocks for a sure basket when he drops the ball. Defender 5'7 B1 kicks the ball intentionally as A1 is bending down to pick it up. A1 is pissed off as B1 could have kicked his fingers and says that is "F***in unsportsmanlike to be kicking at my fingers". B1 replies sincerely "that he just made a great defensive play by saving a lay up if A1 had picked up the ball."

No question that A1 should have been ejected for his language. Since when do we not call fouls for the F-word because we agree with the sentiment? Where the bomb is actually aimed at an opponent, it should be an automatic ejection (Folks -- just to rub it in a little, this is an item on my "list" referred to in a previous post. And it's a correct judgement, don't you think? Sometimes that list has been very helpful!)

If any foul was called on B1, it would have to be intentional -- illegally taking away an obvious advantage. But I'm not sure you can call that on a violation, where there is no player-to-player contact. You might go ahead and call it and then "realize later" that you were wrong. But it does seem that there needs to be something stronger than a violation to call here.

On the other hand, if he only got ball and there was no contact with the fingers, it was actually a pretty good play. Nothing unsportsmanlike about swinging at the ball when it is near another player. It's done a lot!

[mick]

Originally posted by Troward
Situation in a youth Rec game last night where 6'2 A1 recieves the ball on the blocks for a sure basket when he drops the ball. Defender 5'7 B1 kicks the ball intentionally as A1 is bending down to pick it up. A1 is pissed off as B1 could have kicked his fingers and says that is "F***in unsportsmanlike to be kicking at my fingers". B1 replies sincerely "that he just made a great defensive play by saving a lay up if A1 had picked up the ball."

I felt the play was potentially dangerous but did not know of any rule to T up B1 and so I just called it a violation for the kick and ignored cursing b/c I felt A1 was in the right. Eventually rough play escalated between these two and resulted in their ejection for fighting. In retrospect maybe a double technical at the time would have prevented the fight, but what would have been the grounds against A1? (B1 for swearing)

any ideas for this situation?

thanks
GTW

Troward,
A Technical foul on A1 for cursing would have gotten both players' attention early.
If you thought B1 committed an unsporting act, then you could have enforced a technical foul for "an unsporting act".

However, if B1's kicking of the ball did not seem anything more than a violation (before A1 cursed), then I do not see how you can make a turn-around and put a T on B1 ex post facto, because you already ruled a "kick".

As I envision the play, an immediate technical on A1 probably would have sufficed and both players may have finished the game.

As you watched the rough play between A1 and B1 escalate, you may have stepped up to both players and mention to them that they have your attention and that they are now on notice for future actions.

mick

[stripes]

Originally posted by rainmaker

No question that A1 should have been ejected for his language. Since when do we not call fouls for the F-word because we agree with the sentiment? Where the bomb is actually aimed at an opponent, it should be an automatic ejection (Folks -- just to rub it in a little, this is an item on my "list" referred to in a previous post. And it's a correct judgement, don't you think? Sometimes that list has been very helpful!)

Ejected? Are you serious? I would think seriously before ejecting a player for saying something that was not threatening. You could T A1 (although without being there, I am not sure I would do that--I would at least tell him to find some other words to use for the rest of the game), but you might be able to deal with the situation better than quickly issuing a T. I think your list might work well for you and the gmes you call, but I would have serious problems if I used it. Think about A1, he felt like B1 was trying to hurt him, an outburst is not unexpected, help him control it.

[Troward]

Originally posted by rainmaker
>>>>>>>>>>>No question that A1 should have been ejected for his language. Since when do we not call fouls for the F-word because we agree with the sentiment? Where the bomb is actually aimed at an opponent, it should be an automatic ejection

in retrospect I agree with your thought process, but I'm not sure about ejection for cursing? What rule are you citing that says automatic ejection if the curse is directed at another player?

Originally posted by rainmaker
>>>>>>On the other hand, if he only got ball and there was no contact with the fingers, it was actually a pretty good play. Nothing unsportsmanlike about swinging at the ball when it is near another player. It's done a lot!

I think player saftey needs to be considered here, as opposed to encouraging a player to kick at the ball to gain advantage at the risk of breaking another player's fingers.

[mick]

Originally posted by Troward

I think player saftey needs to be considered here, as opposed to encouraging a player to kick at the ball to gain advantage at the risk of breaking another player's fingers.

Troward,
Unforunately, we are only able to judge "the moment" and not the next 10 minutes.
Last night I had two players click heads. If I had been totally consumed with potential risk of unsafe conditions, I should have kept them and their teammates off the floor.
mick

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by stripes

Ejected? Are you serious? I would think seriously before ejecting a player for saying something that was not threatening. You could T A1 (although without being there, I am not sure I would do that--I would at least tell him to find some other words to use for the rest of the game), but you might be able to deal with the situation better than quickly issuing a T. I think your list might work well for you and the gmes you call, but I would have serious problems if I used it. Think about A1, he felt like B1 was trying to hurt him, an outburst is not unexpected, help him control it.

Are you kidding, when a youth drops the "F" bomb for any reason it is an ejection. The "F" bomb is 100% completely unacceptable at the youth, high school, and college level. And in a perfect world I would also like to think that since the vast majority of professional players are college educated that the "F" bomb would result in an ejection too. But as I stated before, at the youth, H.S., and college level, the "F" bomb means ejection.

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Are you kidding, when a youth drops the "F" bomb for any reason it is an ejection. The "F" bomb is 100% completely unacceptable at the youth, high school, and college level. And in a perfect world I would also like to think that since the vast majority of professional players are college educated that the "F" bomb would result in an ejection too. But as I stated before, at the youth, H.S., and college level, the "F" bomb means ejection.

Mark T.,
I'll defend your right to feel that way.
But, I am afraid 100% is a little high for me.

Was the player lying on the floor injured?

Was the word spoken underbreath to himself?

Was the word quietly directed to a player's parent?

Was the word aimed at a teammate?

I weigh this kinda stuff, before I react. But, if we are on the floor together and you eject for that act, like I said, I'll back you up.
mick

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Are you kidding, when a youth drops the "F" bomb for any reason it is an ejection. The "F" bomb is 100% completely unacceptable at the youth, high school, and college level.

All I can say is, are you kidding, Mark? I mean, have you worked a high school or college game in the last 5 years? I know the answer is "yes" and I have great respect for your experience; so I'm left wondering how in the world you can think that the f-bomb is 100% unacceptable. It is accepted as common speech in almost any setting where HS and college kids gather. HS school use it after a missed shot, never mind when they think they are being targeted for injury. It's like the word "a$$". Just a few years ago, this was considered vulgar. In fact, I think it made Carlin's list of words you can't say on TV. Then "Friends" started using it, Letterman showed fake ads for "Big-@ss Hams", Seinfeld had the episode where Kramer got the license plate that said "Assman" on it. Nowadays, people have very little problem with using it in a general conversation.

Should they use it? Do I wish that it were not part of (literally) every-day usage? I think the answer to those questions is obvious. But am I going to eject a kid for cursing? Not unless there is some history other than that one curse word.

As always, just my opinion

Chuck

[bard]

But as I stated before, at the youth, H.S., and college level, the "F" bomb means ejection.

Mark T.--

I have no patience with the f-bomb. I would have called the 'T' very quickly in this scenario. I do not, however, see justification for an ejection in this case. That would be automatically equating the f-bomb to flagrant acts such as fighting.

I'm not quibbling that the f-bomb should not be allowed, but I don't think the usage of this word warrants an ejection by itself, just a prompt 'T'. If it was directed straight at me, in as loud of a voice as possible, I could certainly see classifying it as flagrant.

[LepTalBldgs]

Been doing YMCA type jr. high/freshman rec games where there is no language used at all. First yr. of high school coming up so I expect to need some guidance.

Mark cites 100% ejection. Usually he backs up statements with citations of chapter and verse. I would be interested in that here.

Others seem to look the other way if an F bomb is done quietly and in context.

I was of the opinion that F bomb is always a T, but not ejection. Now I'm confused.

Todd

[bard]

LepTalBldgs--

You'll find some great variance of opinion on this board, and it's all useful. Everyone's trigger finger is set differently, but for me, the f-bomb is the nearest thing to an automatic technical that there is.

However, if a player is writhing on the floor in pain or just took a shot to the jewels and drops an f-bomb, I'm very unlikely to call it if it's only audible to those on the floor. I'll likely back off to a suitable distance so I can claim I just didn't hear it!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by LepTalBldgs
Been doing YMCA type jr. high/freshman rec games where there is no language used at all. First yr. of high school coming up so I expect to need some guidance.

Mark cites 100% ejection. Usually he backs up statements with citations of chapter and verse. I would be interested in that here.

Others seem to look the other way if an F bomb is done quietly and in context.

I was of the opinion that F bomb is always a T, but not ejection. Now I'm confused.

Todd

If the rec league you ref in declares cursing to be cause
for a T then T 'em up. If it's cause for ejection then
eject them. I've already posted that I personally have no
list, everything regarding the liberal use of language
depends on the situation. Now I'll say the situation needs to be a blizzard in hell before I'll eject for an f-bomb.

[zebraman]

I'd probably call a quick T on a player who dropped the "F-bomb" to his/her opponent in the situation described in this original post. However, I would not eject them (unless I was reffing my own kid in which case I would eject him from the league for a couple weeks and let mom unleash an entire can of whoop-*** on him). :-)

Z

[JRutledge]

you might be watching much more than you are officiating. I understand and feel that we should do whatever we can to curb vulgar language at the HS level. But that does not mean that a T is warranted everytime. Especially not an ejection just for one word. Sometimes you can curb a lot of this language by having a "talk" with the player that uses that language. Or even sometimes the captain will be enough. But just to throw a kid out when they are made at themselves and you might be the only one that hears it, is a stretch to me.

Now at the college level, you will never work again if you are calling Ts for one F-word. Whether we want to see it that way, these are adults. Coaches are coaching as an vocation, not just some extra money. Schools spend thousands and sometimes millions on their programs and Mark wants to throw out someone over one word. Now I understand the personal feeling on the use of language, but you might not get out the first half if you take that approach. I agree that it is not acceptable and should not be acceptable language in many circles, but give us a break. This is going to happen and probably happen often. Now if players are cursing at opponents, you have something. If they are talking amongst teammates or to themselves, no way should you be giving a T, let alone throwing them out of the game because of such an action.

Common sense has to be used. And probably more than any other time and any other place in the rulebook, we need to use it here.

Peace