kicking at the ball

[AK ref SE]

I can understand if it is written in the rules of a rec league or a youth league to have an automatic ejection for the f-bomb or any other curse word......But at other levels if the F-bomb is audible to the entire gym or directed at me or another player I would ring that player up....not eject him/her. Now if it was in the context of "I'm am going to kick your f-bomb a$$ then I would probably eject the player for instigating a fight.

Just my 2 cents

AK ref SE

[Troward]

the point of my post was to determine if this situation warranted a double T? the consensus seems to be that the Official cannot T up the player who kicked the loose ball and barely missed the others fingers,it is NOT unsportsmanelike unless he connected & cuased actual harm is that right?
I was thinking that this kicking scenario was equivalent to a player throwing a punch and not connecting. ???

Everyone seems to agree that the player who cursed should get at least a T.

[APHP]

Ever wonder (as ChuckElias) stated why the players vocabularies now include the ever so frequestly used F*** word--I suggest it is parents and OFFICIALS who tolerate this type language. Apparently a number of officials tolerate this type language from their kids. Or do they !! Or is it only when they officiate !!! I don't accept it from my children (who are now grown) and I am not going to accept it from your's either...playing ball or not. It's a "T".

[mick]

Originally posted by Troward
... the consensus seems to be that the Official cannot T up the player who kicked the loose ball and barely missed the others fingers,it is NOT unsportsmanelike unless he connected & cuased actual harm is that right?
I was thinking that this kicking scenario was equivalent to a player throwing a punch and not connecting. ???....

Troward,
Was the kick meant to be malicious?
Was the missed punch meant to be malicious?
I see a difference.
I see different penalties based on adjudged intent.
mick

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by APHP
Ever wonder (as ChuckElias) stated why the players vocabularies now include the ever so frequestly used F*** word--I suggest it is parents and OFFICIALS who tolerate this type language. Apparently a number of officials tolerate this type language from their kids. Or do they !! Or is it only when they officiate !!! I don't accept it from my children (who are now grown) and I am not going to accept it from your's either...playing ball or not. It's a "T".

Officials are not the parants of these kids. It is not our job to teach morality and standards. Or at least not in the context of some rules that have little to do with morality. Giving a T does not mean you tolorate or not tolorate certain language. We are only officiating a game, not the game of life by giving a T. You can use some of the same skills to teach a kid a lesson and not blowing your whistle to do it. And it is not like we are only talking about kids. College students are not children. And HS students are almost adults. If you can find ways to accomplish what you aspire by not putting air in your whistle, then do it. Sometimes that will go further than giving a T signal.

Just an opinion.

But I agree with Mick, intent of all the actions are very important. You cannot and should not penalize something that was not on purpose. Things happen, it is a sport.

Peace

[hawkk]

the point of my post was to determine if this situation warranted a double T?
----

F%$# no! The defender kicked the ball, that's a violation. It's also a good defensive play, just as deflecting a pass out of bounds is a good defensive play. Or it could have been a foul -- if he kicked the hand, or if he pushed to get his foot to where he could kick it. So, you either have one T for the F-bomb (and that's a matter of local custom and personal preference) or ya got zip -- just like you called. (Side Note: I can't figure out how to make quotes bold like everyone else does; can someone give me a hint?)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick
I was thinking that this kicking scenario was equivalent to a player throwing a punch and not connecting. ???....

[/B]

Troward,
Was the missed punch meant to be malicious?
[/B][/QUOTE]Throwing a punch is defined as "fighting",whether contact is made or not.The penalty is always a flagrant foul,with accompanying ejection.See R4-18-1.If someone throws a punch,it's automatic--byebye!

[stripes]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Are you kidding, when a youth drops the "F" bomb for any reason it is an ejection. The "F" bomb is 100% completely unacceptable at the youth, high school, and college level. And in a perfect world I would also like to think that since the vast majority of professional players are college educated that the "F" bomb would result in an ejection too. But as I stated before, at the youth, H.S., and college level, the "F" bomb means ejection.

Mr. DeNucci you are usually the one quoting references for rules, but you seemed to have forgotten it this time. Is that because you are broadly interpreting some rule that the rest of us has missed? I don't know of a rule that spells ejection for this, but I am not the rule guru that you are...

[stripes]

Originally posted by hawkk
the point of my post was to determine if this situation warranted a double T?
----

F%$# no! The defender kicked the ball, that's a violation. It's also a good defensive play, just as deflecting a pass out of bounds is a good defensive play. Or it could have been a foul -- if he kicked the hand, or if he pushed to get his foot to where he could kick it. So, you either have one T for the F-bomb (and that's a matter of local custom and personal preference) or ya got zip -- just like you called. (Side Note: I can't figure out how to make quotes bold like everyone else does; can someone give me a hint?)

There's a fancy little icon below every post that says "quote". Click on it and you're on your way.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Now I'll say the situation needs to be a blizzard in hell before I'll eject for an f-bomb.


[/B]

What if the f-bomb is directed specifically at you?As in "f... you,ref!"?

Please don't destroy my illusions and tell me that you wouldn't unload somebody who said that to you.

[mick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Troward,
Was the missed punch meant to be malicious?
[/B]

Throwing a punch is defined as "fighting",whether contact is made or not.The penalty is always a flagrant foul,with accompanying ejection.See R4-18-1.If someone throws a punch,it's automatic--byebye! [/B][/QUOTE]

Aha! Thus, the difference.

[Camron Rust]

The way I read this situation, the defender made a smart play. Defenders often make plays that will almost always end up in a violation. I see this as no different than a player sticking their foot out to block a pass to an open player under the basket. They deliberately stopped the ball with the foot. Usually, that is considered good defense when the alternative is a sure score. Sure, it's a violation, but it stopped the pass.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

What if the f-bomb is directed specifically at you?As in "f... you,ref!"?

Please don't destroy my illusions and tell me that you wouldn't unload somebody who said that to you. [/B]

Well, I would talk to them, find out why they hate me and
ask how I need to change for us to be friends again...
yeah, that's it...

They would be gone before they got to the "ck".

[mick]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

They would be gone before they got to the "ck".

Oh! I get it!
Very clever.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

1) I am a structural engineer, a professional person (some would say, others would not). But since I was small boy I have been on construction sites where colorful language is the norm. I assure all the people who are reading this of the following: a) If you have straight hair I can curl it; b) If you have curly hair I can straighten it; c) If you have hair I can cause it to fall out; and c) If you have no hair I can make you grew it. It is suffice to say that in certain situations, my language would be described as colorful. Having said that lets look at the “F” bomb situation.


2) Why is the “F word” a flagrant technical foul. The rules say so.

NFHS R4-S19-A4: A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

NCAA R4-S26-A5: Flagrant technical foul dead ball (women: flagrant foul). A flagrant foul shall be a technical foul when it involves either unsporting conduct that is extreme in nature, or severe, excessive contact against an opponent while the ball is dead. R4-S26-A5a: An exception is a foul by an airborne shooter.

FIBA: I would quote this rules code but the rules are spread over three different sections that requires a Philadelphia lawyer to put them all together.

Using the “F word” is “vulgar” under the NFHS rules code and would fall under “unsporting conduct that is extreme in nature” under the NCAA rules code.


3) My lovely wife and I have two sons, and we have taught them good manners from the time that they were little boys. Good manners and sportsmanlike conduct go hand-in-hand. In the world of sports good manners and sportsmanlike conduct cannot exist without the other. My sister and I were taught those same principles by our parents and my high school basketball coach and our high school golf coach.

The reason some players think that acting in an uncivil manner is acceptable is that our society has tolerated it. I have been a substitute teacher in the Toledo Public School District at the jr. H.S. and H.S. level, and many students use the “F-word” like the use chewing gum (I could not think of a better analogy, so lets not get started on the chewing gum thread). And when one of my students used the “F-word” that student gets a instant E-ticket ride to the Dean’s Office for the rest of the class period. I had once had a jr. H.S. principal tell me she does not expect her students to exhibit good manners because they have not been taught good manners at home. When I heard her I was stunned that she would admit to a parent and taxpayer in her school district that she allows such poor behavior from her students.

JR stated that officials are not parents of the athletes and therefore it is not an official’s job to teach the athletes morals and standards, but good manners and good sportsmanship are expected of the athletes, and when these norms are violated there are certain punishments that must be meted out by the game officials. I have heard in appropriate language used in a manner that only I and maybe one or two other players could hear and I have told them that as college men or women they are above using that kind of language. One would be surprised how quickly these young men and women get the point. And I have given technical fouls to college players for swearing and even tossed a college player years ago for using the “F-word.”

The point is that just because high school and college students are participating in sports is no excuse for them to not exhibit good manners and good sportsmanship.