kicking at the ball

[JRutledge]

I sure as hell do not want to be on the floor with you when you T a kid for saying the F-word to himself after missing a big shot. Especially when no one else heard them. I sure hope when you are the one that explains this to an angry coach.

I also think you entirely missed my point about officials not being parants or the morality police for players. It is our job and our job only to apply the rules and not to allow things to take place that violate the rules. It is also our job to use common sense and to understand the environment that we are at. At the college level, the coaches that are coaching are at work. You throwing out a player at that level is affecting or possibly affecting their job. If you are just throwing out players without warning, then I think that is totally irresponsible. It is not like in other parts of life a person would get fired or get fined just for language. If you do not approve of the language, you can accomplish that very same attitude by having a talk with a player or even a coach. No differnet than any other foul, usually you can warn or talk to a player before you go to such a drastic measure. I know you are going to say that many Flagrant fouls can happen without warning, and you are right. But if you are talking about a "personal" standard, I think you can be a little bit more responsible in your decisions.

But as Steve Pamon, Big Ten Football Crew Chief told me, "you have to do what your Supervisor wants you to do."

Peace

[rainmaker]

I've been gone all day, and had no idea what I'd started. Somewhere I'd gotten the idea (mistaken I now realize) that we all pretty much agreed (except Jeff) that if the F-bomb was aimed at an opponent, it was an automatic ejection. I don't always T for that quiet mad-at-self-missed-shot F word, and I wouldn't eject for the mad-a- self-yelled same although I would T, but when it's aimed at an opponent, it's headed for a fight, AS THIS TURNED OUT TO BE!! The fight started with that word, didn't it? Maybe in Chicag-land, this is no big deal, but around here, it's still a fightin' word, so to speak, and thus requires an E.

[rainmaker]

About the kick, I don't think I would call anything but a violation on this unless I really thought the kid was aiming for physical damage to the opponent. But just for the sake of a good arguement (and something a little different than the same ol' not-out-of-bounds throw in), why doesn't this fall in to the same sort of category as an intentional foul? It is an illegal act that is designed to remove an obvious advantage. Is the intentional rule restricted to contact?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rainmaker


Maybe in Chicag-land, this is no big deal, but around here, it's still a fightin' word, so to speak, and thus requires an E.

Juulie if you have ever read anything I have said, I do not officiate only in the Chicago area. This would not be acceptable in Peoria, Springfield or even in Laharpe and all the farm towns in between. If you are just ejecting kids over the F-word without warning or talking to, then as I stated before, you might be watching more than officiating. Ever seen a kid dislocate his ankle on a layup? I was not going to step in a T the kid because of the language that came out of his mouth while he is rolling around in play.

I did a football game about a month ago and had one Black player say to another Black player, "good play n***a." Now under NF Football Rules, the same words apply almost identically. Being an African-American myself I promply went to the kid that said those words and told him, "That is not acceptable, you are not at home with your friends, and you are in a professional arena. If I hear you say that again, you will not play any longer." Guess what happen? I did not have this problem again and the kid apologized to me and did not do it again. Now this is in a football game where it is a lot harder to hear things on the sidelines. No one knew I even took care of this problem. And it could not be used as an issue and I would not be precieved as being "over officious."

Just my opinion.

Peace

[Redneck Ref]

What do you do when a player (varsity game) that is down after blowing out his knee and at the top of his lungs starts repeatedly saying the f-bomb? The coach and ref are telling him to shut-up but this kid just won't quit. You can eject him but know that he is probably out for the year with this injury. And by the way this happened at a small christian school. You could hear a pin drop in the gym other than the kid yelling.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Red Neck Ref
And by the way this happened at a small christian school. You could hear a pin drop in the gym other than the kid yelling.

Christian schools and foul language go hand and hand in my experience. Some of the most foul language coaches and players are at these institutions. So right after the pregame prayer, the coaches start firing up the F-bombs left and right.

Peace

[bard]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Christian schools and foul language go hand and hand in my experience. Some of the most foul language coaches and players are at these institutions. So right after the pregame prayer, the coaches start firing up the F-bombs left and right.

I have also reffed at Christian schools (NFHS), and I have found quite the opposite to be true. Not that the kids don't still get excited and mess up, but the atmosphere is greatly improved.

Am I responsible for morality? No. But I am responsible for enforcing good sportsmanship defined by NFHS that is arguably based upon some moral principles. While I don't agree with Mark T. that the f-bomb by itself is an automatic ejection, I do appreciate and respect his promotion of high standards for good sportsmanship.

I do not ref for the money, the glory, or as a profession. I like basketball; I like working with the kids; and I like the exercise. If standing up for good sportsmanship and holding the players on the court to a higher standard than that to which they may be accustomed prevents me from "advancing," so be it.

Poor sportsmanship, bad language, and poor role models are, in my opinion, the greatest problem in athletics. (I wouldn't even take my kids to an NBA game today.) I believe I can do something about that in a small way as a ref if I stand up to it when I see it.

As I haven't even had my coffee yet this morning, I'll stop my sermon now. I will add, however, that I like the way this forum continues to force me to look deeper into the rules and their applications. Clear as mud sometimes...

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by bard


I have also reffed at Christian schools (NFHS), and I have found quite the opposite to be true. Not that the kids don't still get excited and mess up, but the atmosphere is greatly improved.

Actually I am not talking about the kids. When I did a football a few weeks ago that was close and went down to the last minute, one of the coaches came out of the press box to curse out one of my partners after the game. This coach went on to threaten and say things like, "I am going to kick your f**king a$$!!" While be bombarded with other cursing tirades with the fans at the game. And this was just one close game. I am not speaking of the times a team is getting beat up on and this happens.

Peace

[mick]

Originally posted by JRutledge


Peace

Rut,
You don't sleep.
Geez!
mick

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by mick


Rut,
You don't sleep.
Geez!
mick

It seems that way sometimes.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Juulie if you have ever read anything I have said, I do not officiate only in the Chicago area. This would not be acceptable in Peoria, Springfield or even in Laharpe and all the farm towns in between. If you are just ejecting kids over the F-word without warning or talking to, then as I stated before, you might be watching more than officiating. Ever seen a kid dislocate his ankle on a layup? I was not going to step in a T the kid because of the language that came out of his mouth while he is rolling around in play.

I did a football game about a month ago and had one Black player say to another Black player, "good play n***a." Now under NF Football Rules, the same words apply almost identically. Being an African-American myself I promply went to the kid that said those words and told him, "That is not acceptable, you are not at home with your friends, and you are in a professional arena. If I hear you say that again, you will not play any longer." Guess what happen? I did not have this problem again and the kid apologized to me and did not do it again. Now this is in a football game where it is a lot harder to hear things on the sidelines. No one knew I even took care of this problem. And it could not be used as an issue and I would not be precieved as being "over officious."

Just my opinion.

Peace

Jeff-- Where DO you ref, then? I guess I'm confused.

If you had read what I just wrote, you will see that I said I specifically will not T for the quiet under the breath kind of stuff. And only T if it's "loud enough to hear in the second row." I can't believe it would play in Peoria, frankly. I know people who live in rural Indiana and Illinois--lots of them. They would not find this acceptable. Even many inner-city folk here in Portland would be horrified if I let it go, when it's loud enough to hear in the second row. In your area, apparently, this is not the case. Great. I would expect that most of the rest of the country is more like Portland.

In your other situation, I think that you handled it well. Even white housewife me knows that that particular word is often acceptable between African-Americans when it has an entirely different meaning if spoken by a non-black. I

I never said my "list" was a list of 100% responses. There are about 5 things on my list where I will "automatically give a T if..." Other items on the list have the word "if" in them. One item is not so much a word or collection of words as a concept, "taunting". You weren't overly officious to talk to some guys about some questionable language, and I'm not overly officious to decide ahead of time about certain responses to certain situations.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rainmaker


Jeff-- Where DO you ref, then? I guess I'm confused.

Juulie, I do not and never have worked in a small area. I grew up in Western Illinois and moved to a Suburb of Chicago almost 4 years ago. I have never stopped officiating where I began my career and literally work in all types of places throughout the state. I work over 20 conferences from South of Springfield to the Wisconsin/Illinois boarder.

Originally posted by rainmaker

If you had read what I just wrote, you will see that I said I specifically will not T for the quiet under the breath kind of stuff. And only T if it's "loud enough to hear in the second row." I can't believe it would play in Peoria, frankly. I know people who live in rural Indiana and Illinois--lots of them. They would not find this acceptable. Even many inner-city folk here in Portland would be horrified if I let it go, when it's loud enough to hear in the second row. In your area, apparently, this is not the case. Great. I would expect that most of the rest of the country is more like Portland.

I do not think we ever discussed how loud anyone cursed. As a matter of fact, that never was an issue in this discussion. Obviously if someone in the second row of a very loud gym hears something, that is obvious and can be dealt with appropriately. Not a single person would complain or could complain with a straight face. But usually (at least in my experience) most players and even coaches do not curse loud enough so that the second row can hear them. Participants are usually smart enough not to let the entire world here them. If you give a T and you were the only person that hears them, especially not in a certain context. Just like everything else we should call, if no one else knows it but you, it might not be the best call to make. Especially with something that has such a harsh penalty like ejection.

Originally posted by rainmaker

I never said my "list" was a list of 100% responses. There are about 5 things on my list where I will "automatically give a T if..." Other items on the list have the word "if" in them. One item is not so much a word or collection of words as a concept, "taunting". You weren't overly officious to talk to some guys about some questionable language, and I'm not overly officious to decide ahead of time about certain responses to certain situations.

Juulie, this is not the conversation about the lists. That was another conversation.

Peace

[APHP]

Now-Now Mark. They are only children-uh-I mean adults with a nasty mouth.

[stripes]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
2) Why is the “F word” a flagrant technical foul. The rules say so.

NFHS R4-S19-A4: A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

NCAA R4-S26-A5: Flagrant technical foul dead ball (women: flagrant foul). A flagrant foul shall be a technical foul when it involves either unsporting conduct that is extreme in nature, or severe, excessive contact against an opponent while the ball is dead. R4-S26-A5a: An exception is a foul by an airborne shooter.

FIBA: I would quote this rules code but the rules are spread over three different sections that requires a Philadelphia lawyer to put them all together.

Using the “F word” is “vulgar” under the NFHS rules code and would fall under “unsporting conduct that is extreme in nature” under the NCAA rules code.

Maybe its just me, but that is an interpretation that I just haven't ever seen or heard. If that is the way you interpret the rule, that is great, but that isn't how I interpret the rule and would call it differently.

3) My lovely wife and I have two sons, and we have taught them good manners from the time that they were little boys. Good manners and sportsmanlike conduct go hand-in-hand. In the world of sports good manners and sportsmanlike conduct cannot exist without the other. My sister and I were taught those same principles by our parents and my high school basketball coach and our high school golf coach.

The reason some players think that acting in an uncivil manner is acceptable is that our society has tolerated it. I have been a substitute teacher in the Toledo Public School District at the jr. H.S. and H.S. level, and many students use the “F-word” like the use chewing gum (I could not think of a better analogy, so lets not get started on the chewing gum thread). And when one of my students used the “F-word” that student gets a instant E-ticket ride to the Dean’s Office for the rest of the class period. I had once had a jr. H.S. principal tell me she does not expect her students to exhibit good manners because they have not been taught good manners at home. When I heard her I was stunned that she would admit to a parent and taxpayer in her school district that she allows such poor behavior from her students.

JR stated that officials are not parents of the athletes and therefore it is not an official’s job to teach the athletes morals and standards, but good manners and good sportsmanship are expected of the athletes, and when these norms are violated there are certain punishments that must be meted out by the game officials. I have heard in appropriate language used in a manner that only I and maybe one or two other players could hear and I have told them that as college men or women they are above using that kind of language. One would be surprised how quickly these young men and women get the point. And I have given technical fouls to college players for swearing and even tossed a college player years ago for using the “F-word.”

The point is that just because high school and college students are participating in sports is no excuse for them to not exhibit good manners and good sportsmanship.

I agree that there is a lack of sportsmanship and it is largely due to no one requiring kids to exhibit respect and decorum. I just can't see the logic you use in your interpretation of the rule. I am in no way suggesting that kids shouldn't be penalized for inappropriate language, but the penalty should fit the crime. I don't think your interpretation does.

[JRutledge]

Maybe the the Vanderbilt Football Coach would love Mark's approach (Watch ESPN SportsCenter)

Peace