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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 30, 2011, 05:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
If you hold the ball, fumble it, then intentionally move it on the floor to a new spot, then hold it again, shouldn't it still be a travel?
No. As per the definition of traveling in rule 4-44 you can only travel while holding the ball. See case book play 4.15.4SitD(d) also.
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2011, 05:58pm
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Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
That's the basis why I'm leaning toward travelling in Billy's sitch.

If you hold the ball, intentionally throw it, move to another spot on the floor, and hold it again, it's a travel.

If you hold the ball, fumble it, then intentionally move it on the floor to a new spot, then hold it again, shouldn't it still be a travel?

While you certainly cannot penalize the fumble, I see just cause in the intentional movement. What difference does it make whether you intentionally move the ball from one spot to the other -- resulting in control on both ends -- via the air or the floor?

Now bainsey thinks it's traveling to retrieve a fumble.

Nice job Billy Mac.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 30, 2011, 07:54pm
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Originally Posted by BktBallRef View Post
Now bainsey thinks it's traveling to retrieve a fumble.
Wrong. That's not what I said.

And JR, of course you wouldn't whistle a travel until the ball is held, just as you wouldn't whistle it until you hold it after throwing it from a different place on the floor. Again, whether the ball moves through the air or on the floor, what does it matter?
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2011, 07:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
That's the basis why I'm leaning toward travelling in Billy's sitch.

If you hold the ball, intentionally throw it, move to another spot on the floor, and hold it again, it's a travel.

If you hold the ball, fumble it, then intentionally move it on the floor to a new spot, then hold it again, shouldn't it still be a travel?

While you certainly cannot penalize the fumble, I see just cause in the intentional movement. What difference does it make whether you intentionally move the ball from one spot to the other -- resulting in control on both ends -- via the air or the floor?
Here's the problem, though. Billy's player never gained control after the fumble. I think you could justify an illegal dribble in my alternate play, but I have to say I'm having a hard time justifying any call in Billy's play.
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2011, 08:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Setting the ball on the floor, getting up from a sitting position, and picking the ball back up is a travel.
Snaq, could you (or anyone out there) give me a citation regarding this being a travel? I'm just asking to help settle an argument between another official and myself regarding this exact situation. Thanks.
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2011, 08:41pm
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Originally Posted by jeschmit View Post
Snaq, could you (or anyone out there) give me a citation regarding this being a travel? I'm just asking to help settle an argument between another official and myself regarding this exact situation. Thanks.
4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball
. (4-44-5b)
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2011, 08:41pm
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Originally Posted by jeschmit View Post
Snaq, could you (or anyone out there) give me a citation regarding this being a travel? I'm just asking to help settle an argument between another official and myself regarding this exact situation. Thanks.
4.44.5B (last year's book)
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2011, 08:42pm
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Many thanks to both of you! I can never seem to find anything when I need to in that case book!
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2011, 07:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
A1 dribbles, comes to a stop, and intentionally, and deliberately, ends his dribble. He then proceeds to fumble the ball, which drops to the floor. A1 tries to pick up the fumbled ball, but in his haste he ends up just pushing it and the ball rolls across the floor for a distance of about a foot. Now A1 realizes that two defenders are close enough to him to attempt to pick up the fumbled ball off the floor, so he, in my opinion, intentionally, and deliberately pushes the ball to roll it a few feet away from one defender, and then, again in my opinion, intentionally, and deliberately, pushes the ball again to roll it a few feet away from the second defender. At this point, before he picks it up, I figure that the statute of limitations has run out on the "can always pick up a fumble rule", so I blow my whistle, and call a travel. Later, during a timeout, I discuss this with my partner and she believes that this should have been an illegal dribble.

I know that this play has got to be illegal, just not sure why? Help.
Here's another thought for what it's worth. Why not a double dribble? 4-15-1 says, "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times." The rule doesn't say the ball has to bounce or continue to bounce. Does this seem a more likely fit than a travel? The player completed a dribble, fumbled, then (while in control) batted or pushed the ball to the floor again.
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2011, 07:27pm
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Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
Here's another thought for what it's worth. Why not a double dribble? 4-15-1 says, "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times." The rule doesn't say the ball has to bounce or continue to bounce. Does this seem a more likely fit than a travel? The player completed a dribble, fumbled, then (while in control) batted or pushed the ball to the floor again.
No, he didn't. After the fumble, he never did anything that constitutes control. He certainly never "batted it to the floor," as it was already on the floor. A "controlled" tap does not equal player control, no matter how controlled it is.
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2011, 07:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
No, he didn't. After the fumble, he never did anything that constitutes control. He certainly never "batted it to the floor," as it was already on the floor. A "controlled" tap does not equal player control, no matter how controlled it is.
Disagree. BillyMac said the player deliberately and intentionally pushed the ball away from the defender. What if the fumbled ball was bouncing and A1 deliberately tapped or pushed the ball away from the defender once or more than once so the defender couldn't get it? Would you not have a double dribble?
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2011, 07:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
Disagree. BillyMac said the player deliberately and intentionally pushed the ball away from the defender. What if the fumbled ball was bouncing and A1 deliberately tapped or pushed the ball away from the defender once or more than once so the defender couldn't get it? Would you not have a double dribble?
No. Tapping or pushing the ball do not consitute control unless they're part of a dribble. Pushing a bouncing ball, likewise, does not constitute control unless it's part of a controlled dribble.

How to judge this? If the player is able to bat/push the ball between consecutive bounces, I'd call it control. If it bounces more than once between dribbles *, I'm more likely to judge it a continued fumble.

* a rule of thumb with no known rules backing or contradiction.
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Old Sun Jan 30, 2011, 08:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
No. Tapping or pushing the ball do not consitute control unless they're part of a dribble. Pushing a bouncing ball, likewise, does not constitute control unless it's part of a controlled dribble.

How to judge this? If the player is able to bat/push the ball between consecutive bounces, I'd call it control. If it bounces more than once between dribbles *, I'm more likely to judge it a continued fumble.

* a rule of thumb with no known rules backing or contradiction.
I understand what you are saying. But in the context of a dribble/fumble situation we know that if a player ends a dribble then fumbles he may recover (catch) the ball but could not track down the fumble and then resume dribbling. Keep in mind in BillyMacs situation the player tapped the ball more than once consecutively all within a few feet. In my mind I'm seeing that as control. I guess this is a htbt situation. Your turn.
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