Legal dribble or not?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Say A1 has dribbled 7 times. On his eighth dribble, he pushes the ball down, the ball hits his foot without touching the floor and goes straight back up, and then A1 pushes the ball to the floor again. Is that a violation, by rule, for touching the ball twice during the same dribble?

Would someone answer this question?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sigh....

Then whatinthehell was it?

In the OP, Scrappy said it was a dribble. Now You're saying it isn't a dribble. Well, sorry. I knew Scrapper1. You sir, are no Scrapper1. I'll think I'll go with Scrappy.

Scrappy saying it was a dribble doesn't make it a dribble if it doesn't fit the definition of a dribble. I could say A1 started a dribble by tossing the ball from one hand to another but that doesn't mean it really was a dribble.

The question remains: Did A1 start a dribble when he pushed the ball to his foot? Why would this be any different than tossing the ball from one hand to another?

Say A1 has dribbled 7 times. On his eighth dribble, he pushes the ball down, the ball hits his foot without touching the floor and goes straight back up, and then A1 pushes the ball to the floor again. Is that a violation, by rule, for touching the ball twice during the same dribble?

That depends on whether you think A1 started a dribble in the OP. If you do, no violation. If you don't, violation. I don't see any basis for considering the foot equivalent to the floor in the rules (in fact quite the opposite). The ball touching a foot should not be considered to have touched the floor.

In the OP, A1 has not started a dribble (and, no Scrappy didn't lie about it) and in your scenario A1 has touched the ball twice with his hands without letting it touch the floor.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

My point is, definition of a dribble contains "pushed to the floor" and this ball didn't touch the floor, so it wasn't a dribble.

That's a bit silly, IMO. If the ball bounces on a gum wrapper it's not a dribble, because it didn't touch the floor?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

A1 has dribbled 7 times. On his eighth dribble, he pushes the ball down, the ball hits his foot without touching the floor and goes straight back up, and then A1 pushes the ball to the floor again. Is that a violation, by rule, for touching the ball twice during the same dribble?

Everybody completely forget about the damn OP and whether a dribble had started or not. If y'all don't think a dribble was started even though Scrappy1 said it did, who I am to tell you anything different?

In the situation above, is this a violation or no? And if not, why not?

For the record, I say it is because the ball was touched twice during a dribble.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Say A1 has dribbled 7 times. On his eighth dribble, he pushes the ball down, the ball hits his foot without touching the floor and goes straight back up, and then A1 pushes the ball to the floor again. Is that a violation, by rule, for touching the ball twice during the same dribble?

No violation. Dribbling off your own foot generally has its own natural punishment.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mbyron

No violation. Dribbling off your own foot generally has its own natural punishment.

Is there a limit as to how many times you can dribble off your foot without the ball touching the floor? Can you go from one end to the other doing that? Or maybe continually off your knee like a soccer player as long as the knee isn't moving when the ball hits?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by mbyron

That's a bit silly, IMO. If the ball bounces on a gum wrapper it's not a dribble, because it didn't touch the floor?

So have I started a dribble if I push the ball down but catch with the other hand before it hits the floor? It's not being silly to note that the floor is different than a foot. Bringing a gum wrapper into the discussion is a bit silly.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Everybody completely forget about the damn OP and whether a dribble had started or not. If y'all don't think a dribble was started even though Scrappy1 said it did, who I am to tell you anything different?

In the situation above, is this a violation or no? And if not, why not?

For the record, I say it is because the ball was touched twice during a dribble.

JR, just because Scrappy said a dribble started doesn't mean a dribble started. It has to start by rule not by Scrappy's (or your) fiat. (And for that matter Scrappy didn't say a dribble started he said A1 released the ball to start a dribble (intention) not A1 started a dribble (fact, which inherently involves the ball actually making it to the floor)).

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Is there a limit as to how many times you can dribble off your foot without the ball touching the floor?

I see none prescribed by the rules.

[Adam]

I think doing it on purpose would be a kicking violation, sort of like a player letting the ball hit his foot and roll up his leg to gain control.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Would someone answer this question?

The question is, does a violation of 4-15-2 require the ball to be batted "in the air," as the rule states? Or, is it a violation to touch the ball twice with the hands "during a dribble," meaning any dribble, per case play 4.15.4D? Those three words in the case play seem to add a bit to the rule.

[Adam]

Just to complicate matters more:
A1 dribbling down the court, bats the ball (legally) over B1's head. Instead of allowing it to bounce, however, he catches it.

Violation?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think doing it on purpose would be a kicking violation, sort of like a player letting the ball hit his foot and roll up his leg to gain control.

The question is, does a violation of 4-15-2 require the ball to be batted "in the air," as the rule states? Or, is it a violation to touch the ball twice with the hands "during a dribble," meaning any dribble, per case play 4.15.4D? Those three words in the case play seem to add a bit to the rule.

I think anytime the ball is touched while not on the floor it is being batted in the air. "In the air" is the location of the ball, not the direction given by the bat.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I think anytime the ball is touched while not on the floor it is being batted in the air. "In the air" is the location of the ball, not the direction given by the bat.

I don't think that's what is meant by 4-15-2, otherwise it would be a completely redundant rule. Why would they need to say a player can "bat it in the air," unless they have trajectory in mind?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

...
Forget about the start of the dribble. Say A1 has dribbled 7 times. On his eighth dribble, he pushes the ball down, the ball hits his foot without touching the floor and goes straight back up, and then A1 pushes the ball to the floor again. Is that a violation, by rule, for touching the ball twice during the same dribble?

Unless I'm confused, that's what Scrappy's been asking from the git-go.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Would someone answer this question?

I thought I did that a few pages ago. In fact, I answered the question before it was asked.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I would agree if A1 had already batted the ball to floor at least once. But in the OP I see it no different than standing in place and tossing the ball to himself before dribbling.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Scrapper1 told us in the OP that A1 released the ball to start a dribble. Are you calling Scrappy a liar? Is there any reason you wouldn't believe Scrappy?

Or are you a resident of JARlandia also?

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Nope, but since the dribble never occurred I'm not ruling it a violation. The dribble was deferred.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

We all know the dribble starts when it's pushed to the floor, but if it never hits the floor, was it really the start of the dribble?

Kind of like the tree falling in the forest question. Does it make a sound?

[just another ref]

It should be mentioned (shouldn't it?) that this one where the case book adds totally another dimension to the rule. The illegal dribble violation in the rule book is for only ending a dribble and starting another. 4.15.4 D as noted above states it is a violation for the ball being touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble. Yet touching it twice does not end the dribble. So why is this a violation? This being said, I have always called/seen it called for two touches, regardless of the direction. In other words, a bat over the head (upward) is not necessary. What I see most often is the ball slapped horizontally from one hand to the other, then pushed to the floor.