Charge/Block question

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by UCFGUY06

I am writing as a curious fan, who created quite a debate in the lunch room today.

Just seems to be you can't call a charging foul on a man who at times has a 100 pound advantage and is posting up. If the defender is behind him and is getting manhandled, how do you call an offensive foul?

By blowing the whistle and pointing the other way.

Size doesn't mean the rules don't apply to him.

You're dangerously close to going from writing as "a curious fan" to writing as a "fan-boy." The former is welcomed; the latter, not so much.

[UCFGUY06]

But how is dribbling towards the basket, back turned, a foul? At what point does the offensive player then no longer have the right to make an attempt to the basket.

Are you then saying once a defender is covering a man, all attempts to move towards the hoop are a charge? If a guy like Shaq or Dwight Howard dribble with their butt first how is that different then Kobe going straight on?

Seems to me there is no standard nor is there set way.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by UCFGUY06

But how is dribbling towards the basket, back turned, a foul? At what point does the offensive player then no longer have the right to make an attempt to the basket.

Are you then saying once a defender is covering a man, all attempts to move towards the hoop are a charge? If a guy like Shaq or Dwight Howard dribble with their butt first how is that different then Kobe going straight on?

Seems to me there is no standard nor is there set way.

If the defender has a legal position, then the offensive player cannot displace the defender. That's true whether the offiensive player is facing the basket or "backing down" the defender. The offensive player must stop or go around.

[just another ref]

Forget front and back. It's all about the path of the player. If the defender establishes himself in that path and is run over, the foul is on the offense.

[CLH]

Originally Posted by UCFGUY06

But how is dribbling towards the basket, back turned, a foul? At what point does the offensive player then no longer have the right to make an attempt to the basket.

Are you then saying once a defender is covering a man, all attempts to move towards the hoop are a charge? If a guy like Shaq or Dwight Howard dribble with their butt first how is that different then Kobe going straight on?

Seems to me there is no standard nor is there set way.

Illegal contact is illegal contact. If the defender has established himself in the path of the dribbler or is in his legally acquired posted up position, if the offensive player dislodges him or the contact is illegal a foul has occured. It does not matter when the contact is with his back, shoulder, butt, arm, ear or nose, illegal contact is illegal contact and is a foul.

[Zoochy]

Think of it this way. You drive a small and you are stopped at a stop light. There is a car in front of you. A real BIG car. All cars are not moving. The car in front of you decides to put the car in reverse and smashes into you. Who is at fault?
Now return to your regular scheduled program.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by UCFGUY06

Seems to me there is no standard nor is there set way.

There is a standard and set way under high school, college and international rules. The NBA? Not so much.

I've been involved with basketball officiating for over 50 years and I don't have a clue what a "foul' is in the NBA.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There is a standard and set way under high school, college and international rules. The NBA? Not so much.

I've been involved with basketball officiating for over 50 years and I don't have a clue what a "foul' is in the NBA.

Isn't that when a non-star player impedes a star player in any way, legally or illegally?

[APG]

I don't really understand the question?

If a defender gets a legal position and an offensive player causes displacement, there can only be a charge or no call. When the rules say get in front of the defender, they don't mean one has to go face to face. They mean get in front of the offensive player's path.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by jurassic referee

there is a standard and set way under high school, college and international rules. The nba? Not so much.

I've been involved with basketball officiating for over 50 years and i don't have a clue what a "foul' is in the nba.

+1

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by UCFGUY06

But how is dribbling towards the basket, back turned, a foul? At what point does the offensive player then no longer have the right to make an attempt to the basket.

Are you then saying once a defender is covering a man, all attempts to move towards the hoop are a charge? If a guy like Shaq or Dwight Howard dribble with their butt first how is that different then Kobe going straight on?

Seems to me there is no standard nor is there set way.

Sure there is - go back and read your original post..from nba.com: "If he gets to a legal position and the offensive player runs into him it is an offensive foul." Doesn't get much clearer than that....it doesn't matter if the offensive player is going forwards, backwards, sideways or turning somersaults.

You asked a question and in response have been given good and accurate information by some very experienced officials - being argumentative, especially out of ignorance won't help your case. As the title indicates, this is an officiating forum - a place where officials and interested others get together to discuss and improve our knowledge and understanding of officiating the game of basketball. Anyone interested in learning more about the sport and how it is officiated is always welcome. But as Bob indicated, for "fan-boys" -those that simply want to espouse opinions and aren't interested in the facts - there are other discussion boards that are more suitable....

Being a curious fan can be a good thing, but being an informed and knowledgeable fan is much better. If you want to be the latter, I'd suggest you spend some time learning the fundamentals and rules of basketball.

[UCFGUY06]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Sure there is - go back and read your original post..from nba.com: "If he gets to a legal position and the offensive player runs into him it is an offensive foul." Doesn't get much clearer than that....it doesn't matter if the offensive player is going forwards, backwards, sideways or turning somersaults.

You asked a question and in response have been given good and accurate information by some very experienced officials - being argumentative, especially out of ignorance won't help your case. As the title indicates, this is an officiating forum - a place where officials and interested others get together to discuss and improve our knowledge and understanding of officiating the game of basketball. Anyone interested in learning more about the sport and how it is officiated is always welcome. But as Bob indicated, for "fan-boys" -those that simply want to espouse opinions and aren't interested in the facts - there are other discussion boards that are more suitable....

Being a curious fan can be a good thing, but being an informed and knowledgeable fan is much better. If you want to be the latter, I'd suggest you spend some time learning the fundamentals and rules of basketball.

Then as an official please tell me why Shaq, Dwight Howard, and Greg Oden at OSU were never called for charging in their careers? In the NBA, and in the NCAA this is seen all the time and is never called. So what is that reason then, is it not a foul, or special treatment?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by UCFGUY06

Then as an official please tell me why Shaq, Dwight Howard, and Greg Oden at OSU were never called for charging in their careers?

You must not watch much basketball.

Shaq is called for offensive fouls quite often. On Christmas Day, if fouled out while playing less than a full quarter. If the defender holds his ground, Shaq is routinely called for offensive fouls.

In the Magic's second playoff series last year, Dwight Howard stayed in so much foul trouble, he was irrelevant in the series. He incurs numerous technical fouls for complaining about these fouls.

Greg Oden can't stay healthy long enough to commit an offensive foul. He's the 21st century's version of Sam Bowie.

In the NBA, and in the NCAA this is seen all the time and is never called. So what is that reason then, is it not a foul, or special treatment?

Actually, it's called quite often in the NCAA. In the NBA, it's called to a lesser extent because the assoication is about entetainment, not basketball.

BTW, using words like alsways and never is a very bad idea.

[APG]

Originally Posted by UCFGUY06

Then as an official please tell me why Shaq, Dwight Howard, and Greg Oden at OSU were never called for charging in their careers? In the NBA, and in the NCAA this is seen all the time and is never called. So what is that reason then, is it not a foul, or special treatment?

That's just a silly statement. Those guys have been called for charging fouls. Also, bob answered your question correctly in the very first post of this thread.

[UCFGUY06]

Here is a link to NBA Post Up's on YouTube. Sorry about the music, just mute it.

YouTube - Post Moves

Starting at 1:03 with Carmelo who uses his Butt to create space you will see there was no call. This is the stuff I'm talking about.

Also Boozer at 1:40 is the prime example of what I am referring too. That is the move Shaq and other big men have done their whole careers.