Possesion Arrow Error

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Cobra

No technical foul was called at all in post #6. We are talking about a different situation. You keep talking about the whistle. When the whistle occurred means nothing. The foul could be called without a whistle.

Did you even read post #6?

And really? How do you propose to call a foul without a whistle in this situation?

Originally Posted by Cobra

Nope. JR was discussing the wrinkle in several posts. He said some stupid things then tried to cover it up by saying he was talking about #6.

Here you're just wrong. He absolutely was discussing post #6 the entire time; even if others (including me) didn't quite realize it. As I said, you guys were arguing past each other.

Originally Posted by Cobra

No I'm not. There is no time limit to go back and call a foul. But at some point it just becomes too long even though the rules still allow the foul to be called. Same thing with violations. No one is going to go back and call traveling from 5 minutes ago even though the rules allow it to be done.

2-10 lists the errors that may be corrected and the time frame in which such correction must be made. No where is a travel listed in that, so I'd say the rules in fact do not allow you to go back and call a travel from several plays before.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And really? How do you propose to call a foul without a whistle in this situation?

The same way as in any other situation.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Here you're just wrong. He absolutely was discussing post #6 the entire time; even if others (including me) didn't quite realize it. As I said, you guys were arguing past each other.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Here he is directly quoting the situation in which the technical foul is called on the thrower and he said the ball is "dead on the whistle."

http://forum.officiating.com/714165-post24.html

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

2-10 lists the errors that may be corrected and the time frame in which such correction must be made. No where is a travel listed in that, so I'd say the rules in fact do not allow you to go back and call a travel from several plays before.

That has nothing to do with this play. There was no error. The official just took longer than normal to call the violation after it occurred.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Cobra

The same way as in any other situation.

I've never called a foul during action without a whistle, so you'll have to enlighten me.

Originally Posted by Cobra

Sorry, but you are wrong. Here he is directly quoting the situation in which the technical foul is called on the thrower and he said the ball is "dead on the whistle."

http://forum.officiating.com/714165-post24.html

Yeah, he said it was dead on the whistle, which I take (knowing how well he knows the rules) as a mis-speak rather than an error in rules knowledge. But reading it with the understanding that he was talking about the TF mentioned in post #6, it's all the more clear. He was assuming the TF that was being discussed was (a) after the basket and (b) on the team who had just been screwed by the officials' inability to pay attention.

Originally Posted by Cobra

That has nothing to do with this play. There was no error. The official just took longer than normal to call the violation after it occurred.

It's the only place that talks about the ability to fix a mistake, and that's exactly what a missed travel call is. I wouldn't say the rules allow for fixing that error; even though the precise limit on "when is too late" isn't really specified.

I'm obviously giving Jurassic more benefit of the doubt than you are; but he's earned it on this board quite frankly.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1) Yeah, he said it was dead on the whistle, which I take (knowing how well he knows the rules) as a mis-speak rather than an error in rules knowledge. But reading it with the understanding that he was talking about the TF mentioned in post #6, it's all the more clear. He was assuming the TF that was being discussed was (a) after the basket and (b) on the team who had just been screwed by the officials' inability to pay attention.

2) It's the only place that talks about the ability to fix a mistake, and that's exactly what a missed travel call is. I wouldn't say the rules allow for fixing that error; even though the precise limit on "when is too late" isn't really specified.

1) Yes, I was assuming that because that was the only whistle that was ever blown in post #6. I can't seriously consider as being logical that you can have a technical foul occur right after a throw-in, a team then goes up court and takes a 3-pointer and makes it, and after the made 3-pointer there's an argument resulting in a whistle for a technical foul..... and there's still hasn't been a whistle ever been blown for the original technical foul that occurred right after the throw-in ended. But we're supposed to think the ball was dead through all that. Maybe it's just me, but I just can't buy the logic on that one.

2) There's no precise time limit set between a foul or violation occuring and the whistle for that foul or violation but there is common sense plus an understanding of what is usually expected from us as officials. A patient whistle is good sometimes..... not all the time..... but if you see a foul or violation occur and you don't blow your whistle for that foul or violation within about 2 or 3 seconds max, you might as well let it go because the play is now usually long gone. Hell, the play might be half the court away in that 2 or 3 seconds. And if you want to wait for...gasp...more than 5 seconds to blow your whistle after a foul or violation occured, well, all I can say is good luck to in your new job as one of chseagle's assistants. There's real life out there. And that is why I can't really take any of Cobra's arguments seriously.

Jmo fwiw....

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I've never called a foul during action without a whistle, so you'll have to enlighten me.

Just yell for them to stop or something. The point is that sounding the whistle is not required by rule in order to call a foul.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yeah, he said it was dead on the whistle, which I take (knowing how well he knows the rules) as a mis-speak rather than an error in rules knowledge.

Yes, that makes sense. But it was not a single incident. It is possible to have something come out wrong in a post. But when it is happening multiple times then it is more of a rules knowledge problem than a rules explaining problem.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you haven't decided to call the "T" or had not blown your whistle before the ball left the shooter's hands on the 3-point attempt, you have no rules justication that I know of to then cancel the 3-point basket if it goes. The ball is live until the try is made or missed.

When an official decides to call a foul or sounds the whistle has no bearing on when the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the foul occurs.

Originally Posted by youngump

Cobra is saying that he can go back and call a foul from the start of the first half if he realizes it was a foul with 5 seconds left in the game. If so all subsequent action happened during a dead ball since the foul made the ball dead. No one agrees with him.

All I have said is that there is time limit under the rules for calling fouls and violations. Other people agree with this. Other people disagree but have not provided a rules citation.

Originally Posted by youngump

JR is saying that if the ball is erroneously inbounded then it has become live. Only Cobra disagrees on this point.

The ball would become live when it is at the disposal of the thrower, not when inbounded. But if there a foul before it is at his disposal then the ball would remain dead.

Originally Posted by youngump

He further envisions that in some early numbered post this is what was happening here. JR disagrees that the early numbered post describes that situation.

Cameron came up with his own situation which involved a technical foul being called on the thrower.

Originally Posted by youngump

JR is saying that if the three is shot and then the official decides to call a technical that the ball was not dead when shot and the three counts. It's not clear to me if Camron agrees or not.

Cameron does not agree with that. The ball becomes or remains dead when the foul occurs. The fact that it took the official a couple of seconds to call it does not change anything.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) There's no precise time limit set between a foul or violation occuring and the whistle for that foul or violation but there is common sense plus an understanding of what is usually expected from us as officials. A patient whistle is good sometimes..... not all the time..... but if you see a foul or violation occur and you don't blow your whistle for that foul or violation within about 2 or 3 seconds max, you might as well let it go because the play is now usually long gone. Hell, the play might be half the court away in that 2 or 3 seconds. And if you want to wait for...gasp...more than 5 seconds to blow your whistle after a foul or violation occured, well, all I can say is good luck to in your new job as one of chseagle's assistants. There's real life out there. And that is why I can't really take any of Cobra's arguments seriously.

I never said that officials should be going back and calling fouls which occurred earlier. All I said is that there are no rules against doing so.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Yes, that makes sense. But it was not a single incident. It is possible to have something come out wrong in a post. But when it is happening multiple times then it is more of a rules knowledge problem than a rules explaining problem.

If you want to go on thinking JR doesn't know the fundamentals based on a misunderstanding of which play was being discussed, go ahead and make that mistake. I really don't care. I personally wouldn't hang my hat on that, but you're free to.

If you want to think he's an a$$ for the way he's discussed this with you, go ahead. You won't be alone, and he won't really care.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Just yell for them to stop or something. The point is that sounding the whistle is not required by rule in order to call a foul.

I don't need to go to #6 to see who's right or wrong after reading this. This is without a doubt, the dumbest thing I have ever read on here.

From Page 33 of the 2009-2011 NFHS Basketball Officials Manual

2.4.2 FOULS

B. Point of the Foul: It is imperative that a definite procedure in officiating mechanics be used when a foul occurs. The following duties should be performed in the order listed by the calling official:

1. Inform the timer and alert the scorer by sounding the whistle with a single sharp blast while raising one hand, fist clenched, straight and high above the head.

[youngump]

So I posit that everybody has become confused about who is talking about what.

Let me see if I can resolve this.

Cobra is saying that he can go back and call a foul from the start of the first half if he realizes it was a foul with 5 seconds left in the game. If so all subsequent action happened during a dead ball since the foul made the ball dead. No one agrees with him.

JR is saying that if the ball is erroneously inbounded then it has become live. Only Cobra disagrees on this point.

Camron is saying that if right after the ball is inbounded the V coach says something to merit a technical and he decides to call it that the ball is dead when the coach says it even if he drops his whistle and makes the call a second or two later. The foul made the ball dead and the whistle was just making it official. It's not clear to me if JR agrees or not.

He further envisions that in some early numbered post this is what was happening here. JR disagrees that the early numbered post describes that situation.

JR is saying that if the three is shot and then the official decides to call a technical that the ball was not dead when shot and the three counts. It's not clear to me if Camron agrees or not.

Does this capture everyone's viewpoint or is there more?
________
Vapir no2 vaporizer

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by youngump

So I posit that everybody has become confused about who is talking about what.

Let me see if I can resolve this.

Cobra is saying that he can go back and call a foul from the start of the first half if he realizes it was a foul with 5 seconds left in the game. If so all subsequent action happened during a dead ball since the foul made the ball dead. No one agrees with him.

JR is saying that if the ball is erroneously inbounded then it has become live. Only Cobra disagrees on this point.

Camron is saying that if right after the ball is inbounded the V coach says something to merit a technical and he decides to call it that the ball is dead when the coach says it even if he drops his whistle and makes the call a second or two later. The foul made the ball dead and the whistle was just making it official. It's not clear to me if JR agrees or not.

He further envisions that in some early numbered post this is what was happening here. JR disagrees that the early numbered post describes that situation.

JR is saying that if the three is shot and then the official decides to call a technical that the ball was not dead when shot and the three counts. It's not clear to me if Camron agrees or not.

Does this capture everyone's viewpoint or is there more?

Pretty good summary! The only change would be that JR is saying that if the 3 point shot is MADE and THEN the official decides to call the T, you don't take the 3 points off the board.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

pretty good summary! The only change would be that jr is saying that if the 3 point shot is made and then the official decides to call the t, you don't take the 3 points off the board.

+1

[Judtech]

SNAQ I have called MANY fouls with out a whistle. However, it was in my capacity as an assistant coach (Yell: "Hold Up. White/Blue out.) a player in a pick up game (You got it if you want it) or as a fan (WOW, there should have been a foul there)
So as you can see, it IS possible to call a foul without a whistle!!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Judtech

SNAQ I have called MANY fouls with out a whistle. However, it was in my capacity as an assistant coach (Yell: "Hold Up. White/Blue out.) a player in a pick up game (You got it if you want it) or as a fan (WOW, there should have been a foul there)
So as you can see, it IS possible to call a foul without a whistle!!

Like the calls I make from my living room? Now I understand.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by youngump

So I posit that everybody has become confused about who is talking about what.

Let me see if I can resolve this.

Cobra is saying that he can go back and call a foul from the start of the first half if he realizes it was a foul with 5 seconds left in the game. If so all subsequent action happened during a dead ball since the foul made the ball dead. No one agrees with him.

JR is saying that if the ball is erroneously inbounded then it has become live. Only Cobra disagrees on this point.

Camron is saying that if right after the ball is inbounded the V coach says something to merit a technical and he decides to call it that the ball is dead when the coach says it even if he drops his whistle and makes the call a second or two later. The foul made the ball dead and the whistle was just making it official. It's not clear to me if JR agrees or not.

He further envisions that in some early numbered post this is what was happening here. JR disagrees that the early numbered post describes that situation.

JR is saying that if the three is shot and then the official decides to call a technical that the ball was not dead when shot and the three counts. It's not clear to me if Camron agrees or not.

Does this capture everyone's viewpoint or is there more?

That is spot on....and what I was TRYING to say...but apparently so very poorly.


I'm not even sure JR is saying that.

If the official takes a 1, 2, maybe 3 seconds to process an unusual situation and finally decides, after the shot was released, to call the T for the act that was just before the shot, I assert that the shot was dead. Being momentarily frozen due to a bizarre situation doesn't mean that the time of occurrence is changed....the ball would be dead by rule.

I think JR is saying that if you've moved on, haven't called the T, go down to the other end of the court, you can't even go back and decide to call the T or wipe the shot.....with that I agree.


Can we just delete 90% of this thread now that we've all realized we were talking about a different set of assumptions?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

1If the official takes a 1, 2, maybe 3 seconds to process an unusual situation and finally decides, after the shot was released, to call the T for the act that was just before the shot, I assert that the shot was dead. Being momentarily frozen due to a bizarre situation doesn't mean that the time of occurrence is changed....the ball would be dead by rule.

I think JR is saying that if you've moved on, haven't called the T, go down to the other end of the court, you can't even go back and decide to call the T or wipe the shot.....with that I agree.

Can we just delete 90% of this thread now that we've all realized we were talking about a different set of assumptions?

I agree. Aamof I think that I have already agreed with what Camron is saying above way back in my posts #32 and 38 of this thread.

I also agree that it's time to move on. We're beating a dead horse. I'm sureasheck not going to argue with Cobra any more about the ball being dead for a technical foul committed before the throw-in even though a whistle wasn't blown for that "T" until after a completed throw-in, a completed play and a made 3-point basket. Which would also mean that the throw-in and everything that happened after it never happened. That's just too bizarre for me. Then again though, that's just me.