Why we avoid conflicts of interest

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's not a universal practice all over the country. I think the meaning of it is crystal clear, but it takes quite a bit for me to get to the point where I draw a visible line on the court and essentially (in some coaches' minds) dare them to step over it.

And that's probably why I don't like it. I don't like when coaches show me up and there's a part of me that thinks that me putting my hand up for the coach (and everyone else) to see puts a coach into a corner, and there's nothing more dangerous than a cornered rat.

Putting up a stop sign and saying "that's enough" are the exact same thing imo. The intent of both should be to put a coach in a corner. If the coach wants to ignore either that verbal or non-verbal final warning, he does so at his own risk. And it's also now on me if I fail to follow up on that "final" warning if challenged.

JMO

[stiffler3492]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I view it as a tool to let the coach know we have had enough and they will choose to go down one of two roads. Road one: try to correct their behavior and move on. Road two: leads straight to Whackland! It is their choice.

I tend to agree here. I don't have nearly as much experience as a lot of you, but this logic makes sense to me. It gives a coach a choice, and they can't say we didn't warn them. I've used it with success before, but I've also T'd after using it.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The one thing I'm always reminded of is that the people side of this bidness is the hardest thing we deal with.

I don't think I had 2 coach technicals all last season and I've had 2 now before January 1. C'est la vie.

Poop happens. A few years back, I hadn't had to call a flagrant T in over five years, and then had three within two weeks (all separate incidents)....and haven't had one since (probably just jinxed myself ).

Biggest advantage I can see to the "stop sign" is that the game video will show that the coach was clearly warned. Best if we can defuse it before it gets to that point, but sometimes, in spite of our best efforts, they don't give us a lot of choice. As JR said, when it gets to that point we have to step up and say "that's enough".

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Putting up a stop sign and saying "that's enough" are the exact same thing imo. The intent of both should be to put a coach in a corner. If the coach wants to ignore either that verbal or non-verbal final warning, he does so at his own risk. And it's also now on me if I fail to follow up on that "final" warning if challenged.

JMO

Oh, I know. But I can say, "That's enough" in a way where only the coach and I know I've said it. Sometimes the reaction, IMO, can be completely different. Sometimes it's important to let everyone else know you've heard and acknowledged what's been said and that you aren't going to continue to listen to it. That's how I felt last night. This was, truly, over one call on a shooting foul in a 20-point game. It still amazes me that he chose that point to find a scapegoat for his frustration. Seriously, they hit a 3 on their first possession and didn't score again until there was 3 minutes left in the second quarter.

This is only the second time I've worked a game involving this coach, and he's probably experienced a lot of officials whose motto is "Stop it or I'll tell you to stop it again." He did tell one of my partners that he had only received 3 technicals in 14 years.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by stiffler3492

I tend to agree here. I don't have nearly as much experience as a lot of you, but this logic makes sense to me. It gives a coach a choice, and they can't say we didn't warn them. I've used it with success before, but I've also T'd after using it.

A piece of advice. You considered it success when the T wasn't issued. That implies that you consider it failure when the coach runs through the sign. It's not failure -- it's the coach's choice. Just cause I like to use other tools in the bag before I pull out the stop sign (it's the last possible step before a T, IMO) does not mean it's a failure on the part of the officials if the coach runs through it.

A technical foul is not failure. Those that tell you they haven't called one in 20 years are likely spineless officials who've ignored their responsibilities. Coaches are human beings and one thing that's true is that you don't work 50+ games a season without at least a few coaches crossing the line. Enforce and move on. Do like I do and try to figure out if there was a better way to deal with the situation. My main problem with last night is that I felt I gave way too much rope -- had I warned earlier, maybe the coach would've gotten the message. Maybe not. Still thinking about that one.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Disagree completely. It serves it's function if it's used properly. It's a non-verbal warning, and just like a verbal warning you have to follow up if you want it to be effective.

I measure success on how many times it's actually worked in quieting the coach without a T. Verbal warnings work often for me; I've never had the stop sign work. It's led to a T every time I've used it.

I'm not saying others shouldn't use it; it works for some and in some areas it's actually expected. But like Rich (and others), I'm not a fan.

I think it's overly dismissive and unnecessarily inflammatory.

Note in response to Rich's post, the term "success" as I use it doesn't apply to me so much as the tactic.

[stiffler3492]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

A piece of advice. You considered it success when the T wasn't issued. That implies that you consider it failure when the coach runs through the sign. It's not failure -- it's the coach's choice. Just cause I like to use other tools in the bag before I pull out the stop sign (it's the last possible step before a T, IMO) does not mean it's a failure on the part of the officials if the coach runs through it.

A technical foul is not failure. Those that tell you they haven't called one in 20 years are likely spineless officials who've ignored their responsibilities. Coaches are human beings and one thing that's true is that you don't work 50+ games a season without at least a few coaches crossing the line. Enforce and move on. Do like I do and try to figure out if there was a better way to deal with the situation. My main problem with last night is that I felt I gave way too much rope -- had I warned earlier, maybe the coach would've gotten the message. Maybe not. Still thinking about that one.

Thanks for the advice. That's how I see it. You put it into words better than I did.

[GoodwillRef]

In NCAAW we are instructed to give a STOP SIGN and verbally say that “You have been warned.” If you don't give a verbal it is not considered a warning. We are instructed to "try" to give a warning before a technical is given.

[Adam]

And for the record, I hate the idea of doing it "for the tape," as if your assigner won't trust your word but needs the tape to back you up.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I've never had the stop sign work. It's led to a T every time I've used it.

Are you sure that isn't the coach's fault and not the stop sign's fault?

There's no real real difference between a verbal final warning and a visual final warning imo. In both cases, we can't control what happens next. And in both cases we simply react to what happens next.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you sure that isn't the coach's fault and not the stop sign's fault?

There's no real real difference between a verbal final warning and a visual final warning imo. In both cases, we can't control what happens next. And in both cases we simply react to what happens next.

No, I'm not sure, but I know it hasn't worked for me. It's very possible I haven't used it correctly; but I've just had far greater success with my words.

Out of curiosity, I asked my dad how he would take it and his first thought was "that the official has had enough and I shouldn't push it any further." He's not a coach or official, but I thought it was interesting.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There's no real real difference between a verbal final warning and a visual final warning imo.

Some people are visual learners. Some people are auditory learners. Some people are kinesthetic learners. Unfortunately, I can't legally punch the coach in the mouth.

[Multiple Sports]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's not a universal practice all over the country. I think the meaning of it is crystal clear, but it takes quite a bit for me to get to the point where I draw a visible line on the court and essentially (in some coaches' minds) dare them to step over it.

And that's probably why I don't like it. I don't like when coaches show me up and there's a part of me that thinks that me putting my hand up for the coach (and everyone else) to see puts a coach into a corner, and there's nothing more dangerous than a cornered rat.

Rich -

You are right on brother !!!!! I hate to keep using "NBA Philosophies" with regard to NHFS / NCAA, but Scott Foster has told a bunch of us to put our hands down by our hips, more along the lines of an "easy coach".

Giving the stop sign (when two adults are involved) is absurd. We wouldn't want it and why should we treat another adult like a child.

Just think that too many of us think because we put on the stripes, it gives us
unlimited authority whenever we choose.......

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

You are right on brother !!!!! I hate to keep using "NBA Philosophies" with regard to NHFS / NCAA, but Scott Foster has told a bunch of us to put our hands down by our hips, more along the lines of an "easy coach".

Giving the stop sign (when two adults are involved) is absurd. We wouldn't want it and why should we treat another adult like a child.

Just think that too many of us think because we put on the stripes, it gives us
unlimited authority whenever we choose.......

When did taking a non-threatening posture when dealing with players or coaches become a freaking NBA philosophy? Officials at all levels have been using various forms of that philosophy...folded arms, etc when listening or answering a question....for many, many years....before Scott Foster was born.

And btw, our "unlimited authority" is usually limited by the people we report to. They won't put up with any loose cannons going off. And conversely I also think that far too many of us are afraid to use that supposedly "unlimited authority" to keep their games under control. They're looking for any reason not to call a technical foul. And by far the most used reason by them is the good ol' "it's good game management" excuse.

JMO

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

Rich -

You are right on brother !!!!! I hate to keep using "NBA Philosophies" with regard to NHFS / NCAA, but Scott Foster has told a bunch of us to put our hands down by our hips, more along the lines of an "easy coach".

Giving the stop sign (when two adults are involved) is absurd. We wouldn't want it and why should we treat another adult like a child.

Just think that too many of us think because we put on the stripes, it gives us
unlimited authority whenever we choose.......

Putting the stripes on doesn't give us unlimited authority. It does, however, give us explicitly defined authority which includes penalizing unsporting behavior by a coach. The stop sign and verbal warnings are appropriate tools of that authority. Showing the stop sign is not treating a coach like a child, it's treating him as one who must submit to your authority on his conduct, which he is.

That said, I agree that the stop sign can be inflammatory as it publicly puts the coach into a corner. The stop sign is a hammer but the problem isn't always a nail.