Substitute Technical

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Snaq,

No argument if there's any question, but in my experience that doesn't happen very often. 99% of the time the sub coming in knows who they're replacing and tells them as they enter the court - that player then heads for the bench. If the coach wanted something different, he needs to correct it right away before that kid leaves the court, because once he does, he's not coming back until time runs off the clock.

Again, not relevant to the OP - as posted it was about as clear as it can be.

Several times a season I'll see a coach change his mind before the player leaves the court. So at what point does the player become bench personnel?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Several times a season I'll see a coach change his mind before the player leaves the court. So at what point does the player become bench personnel?

The player became bench personnel when his substitute entered the court, even if nobody knew which player momentarily. I would think, in the OP, signal the T, then, when that player goes to the bench, we would know that it is also an indirect on the coach.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The player became bench personnel when his substitute entered the court, even if nobody knew which player momentarily. I would think, in the OP, signal the T, then, when that player goes to the bench, we would know that it is also an indirect on the coach.

I'm not sure I agree (emphasis on "not sure"). If the player becomes bench personnel when his sub enters the court, then the coach can't change his mind at the last second about who's coming out.
Or, the coach can't correct Johnny's mistake when he tells Jimmy to come out instead of Timmy. Because then Jimmy would have to sit a tic.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not sure I agree (emphasis on "not sure"). If the player becomes bench personnel when his sub enters the court, then the coach can't change his mind at the last second about who's coming out.

Sometimes the coach didn't even say until the player is on the court.

Coach: "Get in there!"

player reports, is beckoned, enters

Player: "For who, coach?"

Coach: "_____, get out!"

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Several times a season I'll see a coach change his mind before the player leaves the court. So at what point does the player become bench personnel?

You and the scorer try and determine who was being replaced. If the player being replaced got the "T", then he's bench personnel and the head coach gets an indirect "T". If it wasn't the player being replaced who got the "T", then just give that player the "T" with no indirect "T" to the head coach. And if you can't determine without doubt the identity of the player being replaced, then assess the maximum penalty...which includes an indirect "T" given to the head coach.

Use the direction of case book play 3.3.1SitF iow. Close enough for me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You and the scorer try and determine who was being replaced. If the player being replaced got the "T", then he's bench personnel and the head coach gets an indirect "T". If it wasn't the player being replaced who got the "T", then just give that player the "T" with no indirect "T" to the head coach. And if you can't determine without doubt the identity of the player being replaced, then assess the maximum penalty...which includes an indirect "T" given to the head coach.

Use the direction of case book play 3.3.1SitF iow. Close enough for me.

Works for me.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You and the scorer try and determine who was being replaced. If the player being replaced got the "T", then he's bench personnel and the head coach gets an indirect "T". If it wasn't the player being replaced who got the "T", then just give that player the "T" with no indirect "T" to the head coach. And if you can't determine without doubt the identity of the player being replaced, then assess the maximum penalty...which includes an indirect "T" given to the head coach.

Use the direction of case book play 3.3.1SitF iow. Close enough for me.

Works for me too!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Works for me.

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Works for me too!

Great. Now let's all sing, "Kumbaya".

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Great. Now let's all sing, "Kumbaya".

Shut up.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Several times a season I'll see a coach change his mind before the player leaves the court. So at what point does the player become bench personnel?

There will always be exceptions, but in the vast majority of substitutions it's crystal clear. So leave it to the official's judgment - if there's reasonable doubt T the player only - if not, HC gets the indirect as well.

I see what you describe happen occasionally, but not all that often - it just isn't a major issue. If it's occurring repeatedly during a game, then that coach needs to do a better job of communicating with their players. Maybe we need to go back to the days when the incoming sub had to report who they were replacing to the table, or add repeated occurances to the criteria for a DOG warning. There's no reason everyone else should have to stand around waiting because of indecision or inadequate communication on the part of the HC. The onus needs to be put back on the coaches where it belongs.