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Old Fri Dec 03, 2004, 12:46pm
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Question

Had this on the other night..A6 is sent by coach to be substitute for A1...A6 goes to table [very long table maybe 15-18 feet long with scorer in the middle and not much room between court and face of table] I am T. Ball goes OOB under basket along endline, I see A6 at end of table nearest to his coach...I whistle and beckon A6 into game...we get ready to inbound ball...L hands ball to B1 to inbound and table informs me that A6 did not report in..

I gave A6 a "T" for being an illegal substitute...

When I beckoned A6 in I had not waited for table to buzz horn..many times table forgets to buzz..so if we see a sub at the table we just wave him in at the appropriate time...

Should I have waited until table buzzed? Any other options?

Comments appreciated.
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Old Fri Dec 03, 2004, 12:50pm
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I would have just allowed the substitution no T.
You beckoned the player. You were the official on the floow and so there was a substitute ready to enter. The Table should have seen it before you.
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Old Fri Dec 03, 2004, 12:54pm
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I thought that at first, then thought, he still needs to report to scorer when he goes up to the table..basically entered the game without reporting.

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Old Fri Dec 03, 2004, 12:57pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by golfdesigner
I thought that at first, then thought, he still needs to report to scorer when he goes up to the table..basically entered the game without reporting.

Yea, but lots of players walk up to the table and assume the table person has seen them. Htis kid wasn't trying to get away with anything, he/she was just clueless. I wouldn't T for this, and I'd give the table a talking to about paying attention. Also, I wonder if A was the home team, or the visitor. If the table is "tattling" on the visitor, I'd be tempted to replace him/her.
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Old Fri Dec 03, 2004, 12:57pm
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That's why we have the big X on the floor in front of the table. Subs simply need to report to the table, then sit or squat next to the X. Only players at the X can come into the game when beckoned.
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Old Fri Dec 03, 2004, 01:06pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by TimTaylor
That's why we have the big X on the floor in front of the table. Subs simply need to report to the table, then sit or squat next to the X. Only players at the X can come into the game when beckoned.
Yes, the player should go to the X (if there is one), but once you beckoned the player, isn't he legally in the game? In other words, if the official allows the sub, then the sub is legal. No T.

There is a rule that states when an illegal sub becomes a legal player, but I can't remember it off the top of my head.
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Old Fri Dec 03, 2004, 01:31pm
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A few years ago I had the table try to pull this on me when a player entered the game on my beckon. Dead ball, and I saw him at the table (he was just getting to the table when I waved him in). Horn blows, and I go to the table to see why.
Table: "He didn't report to me."
Me: "I waved him in."
Table: "You need to wait for the horn."
Me: ???????

If it happened to me now, I'd have a word with the punk instead of looking at him like he was an idiot. He may have misconstrued that as acquiescense.

My opinion, if I wave him in, he's a legal sub and I can't T a kid for doing what I told him to do. That would seem like entrapment.
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Old Fri Dec 03, 2004, 02:16pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by TimTaylor
That's why we have the big X on the floor in front of the table. Subs simply need to report to the table, then sit or squat next to the X. Only players at the X can come into the game when beckoned.
Yes, the player should go to the X (if there is one), but once you beckoned the player, isn't he legally in the game? In other words, if the official allows the sub, then the sub is legal. No T.

There is a rule that states when an illegal sub becomes a legal player, but I can't remember it off the top of my head.
Rule 3-3-3: Illegal sub becomes player when the ball becomes live

I agree that I probably wouldn't assess the T (especially if I had beckoned them in), just remind the player & warn the head coach of the correct procedure. If it happened again I would penalize.

Procedure for HS games in Oregon is we won't start the game until the X is down - athletic tape works just fine. I'll also tell coaches in the pregame to make sure their subs report in & wait by the X - otherwise they're not coming in.

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Old Fri Dec 03, 2004, 03:33pm
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There is a lot of good preventative stuff here (like not waiving substitutes in until they are at ... or really, really close to ... the X on the floor in front of the scorer), but I write to urge, URGE, that no official gives a technical foul to a player who was beckoned onto the court by an official. We may have issues with the table by doing that, but I cannot see any justification for penalizing the substitute-now-player.
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Old Fri Dec 03, 2004, 03:38pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bgtg19
There is a lot of good preventative stuff here (like not waiving substitutes in until they are at ... or really, really close to ... the X on the floor in front of the scorer), but I write to urge, URGE, that no official gives a technical foul to a player who was beckoned onto the court by an official. We may have issues with the table by doing that, but I cannot see any justification for penalizing the substitute-now-player.
Agree completely. Only assessed a T for illegal substitution twice that I can remember - both times for player entering without reporting/being beckoned after being previously warned.
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Old Mon Dec 06, 2004, 10:04am
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further thoughts

Quote:
Originally posted by bgtg19
There is a lot of good preventative stuff here (like not waiving substitutes in until they are at ... or really, really close to ... the X on the floor in front of the scorer), but I write to urge, URGE, that no official gives a technical foul to a player who was beckoned onto the court by an official. We may have issues with the table by doing that, but I cannot see any justification for penalizing the substitute-now-player.

player was "at the table" and I guess I was thinking along the lines of:

SECTION 2 SUBSTITUTE TECHNICAL
A substitute shall not enter the court:
ART. 1 . . . Without reporting to the scorer.
ART. 2 . . . Without being beckoned by an official, except between quarters.
PENALTY: (Arts. 1, 2) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. One foul for either or both requirements. Penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live.
NOTE: A single flagrant technical foul or the second technical foul charged to a substitute results in disqualification of the offender to the team bench.


here it doesn't say that once "beckoned in by an official the requirement to report is waived and null and void..player still must report..
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Old Mon Dec 06, 2004, 10:21am
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golfdesigner,
I'm just unwilling to call a T on a player for doing what I told him to do. If I told him to come in the game, I want him in *now* to get the game moving. So if I made the "mistake" of waving him in before he was able to chat with the scorer, I'm not going to penalize him for listening to me.
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Old Mon Dec 06, 2004, 03:40pm
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Snaqwells, no argument, the sub had been sitting by the table for "a while" when I waived him in, he just went from bench to the table, didn't report, and just waited by the table, no argument that I would not penalize for something I told player to do.
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Old Mon Dec 06, 2004, 04:22pm
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I'd say, in your case, he reported by simply being there.

Otherwise - I don't care what the table said - if I waved him in, he checked in in the process.
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Old Mon Dec 06, 2004, 11:29pm
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Re: further thoughts

Quote:
Originally posted by golfdesigner
Quote:
Originally posted by bgtg19
There is a lot of good preventative stuff here (like not waiving substitutes in until they are at ... or really, really close to ... the X on the floor in front of the scorer), but I write to urge, URGE, that no official gives a technical foul to a player who was beckoned onto the court by an official. We may have issues with the table by doing that, but I cannot see any justification for penalizing the substitute-now-player.

player was "at the table" and I guess I was thinking along the lines of:

SECTION 2 SUBSTITUTE TECHNICAL
A substitute shall not enter the court:
ART. 1 . . . Without reporting to the scorer.
ART. 2 . . . Without being beckoned by an official, except between quarters.
PENALTY: (Arts. 1, 2) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. One foul for either or both requirements. Penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live.
NOTE: A single flagrant technical foul or the second technical foul charged to a substitute results in disqualification of the offender to the team bench.


here it doesn't say that once "beckoned in by an official the requirement to report is waived and null and void..player still must report..

When an official beckons a subsitute into the game, the official's actions trumps all other rules with regard to the substitute reporting to the Scorer. The substitute cannot be penalized for not reporting to the Scorer before the official beckons him into the game.

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