Substitute Technical

[SoMoRef]

Need some answers:


Player is leaving the court after his substitute has been beckoned to enter during a dead ball. As the kid is leaving the court he recieves a technical for saying something to the ref. I understand that at this point he is bench personel even though he hasnt officially made it to the bench, but does this techinical count towards one of his five personal or is it a team techinical on bench personel. I know it is an indirect on the coach. The case book says the foul is added to the team foul count.

[APG]

The technical is charged to the player and counts towards DQ.

[just another ref]

Even though he is now bench personnel, the foul is charged to the individual, not a team T. It also counts as a team foul toward the bonus and toward his 5 for disqualification.

[SoMoRef]

I knew I was right but the first time I had this happen. The coaches were livid when I made the head coach sit.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Even though he is now bench personnel, the foul is charged to the individual, not a team T. It also counts as a team foul toward the bonus and toward his 5 for disqualification.

And is an indirect T on the HC as well, as SoMoRef said in his OP.

Just as a point of reference, a bench technical refers to an unsportsmanlike or other defined act under 10-4 committed by bench personnel. If any team member or other bench personnel (i.e. AC, manager) commits an unsportsmanlike act, you charge the T directly to that person and an indirect to the HC - see penalty section for articles 1-4 under 10-4. Scorer should record it per 2-11-5.

If it's a team member, it counts towards their 2T/5 total foul limit. A single flagrant foul or the second technical foul charged directly to any bench personnel, results in disqualification of the offender. Ejected adult bench personnel shall leave the vicinity (out of sight and sound) of the playing area immediately and are prohibited from any further contact (direct or indirect) with the team during the remainder of the game. If it's a student, they remain on the bench.

See 4-34 for relevant definitions....

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

And is an indirect T on the HC as well, as SoMoRef said in his OP.

Unless the player is actually at the bench (and maybe this one was), how do you KNOW that a player walking in the general direction of the bench is the player that is leaving the game.

What if the coach, after the player is whistled for the T, indicates that he wanted a different player subbed out and was only calling that player over to tell him something? Hmmm. Seems unreliable to assume a specific player is bench personnel until they are actually on the bench or have been disqualified and are thus bench personnel by rule.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Unless the player is actually at the bench (and maybe this one was), how do you KNOW that a player walking in the general direction of the bench is the player that is leaving the game.

What if the coach, after the player is whistled for the T, indicates that he wanted a different player subbed out and was only calling that player over to tell him something? Hmmm. Seems unreliable to assume a specific player is bench personnel until they are actually on the bench or have been disqualified and are thus bench personnel by rule.

Cam,

See the OP - nothing in there about the player being called over by the coach. He was leaving the floor after his sub was beckoned to enter and as he was leaving made a comment to the official that earned him a T. As soon as his sub legally enters the court, the player being replaced is bench personnel per 3-4-3. No need to over analyze it or play what if.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

As soon as his sub legally enters the court, the player being replaced is bench personnel per 3-4-3.

Isn't he bench personnel as soon as the head coach is informed that the player is ejected, or for that matter, simply disqualified.?

Also, by mechanic, or rule, isn't the head coach informed before the player in a simple disqualification? How about an ejection?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Cam,

See the OP - nothing in there about the player being called over by the coach. He was leaving the floor after his sub was beckoned to enter and as he was leaving made a comment to the official that earned him a T. As soon as his sub legally enters the court, the player being replaced is bench personnel per 3-4-3. No need to over analyze it or play what if.

Are you sure about that rule reference?

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Isn't he bench personnel as soon as the head coach is informed that the player is ejected, or for that matter, simply disqualified.?

Also, by mechanic, or rule, isn't the head coach informed before the player in a simple disqualification? How about an ejection?

Billy,

In the OP it was a simple substitution during a dead ball - no DQ involved, so it's not relevant to the situation.

Yes in the event of a DQ, the player becomes bench personnel as soon as the HC is notified.

[Adam]

Cam makes a good point. I assume it was obvious in the OP that the mouthy one was the one for whom the sub came in, but there could be some question; in which case I'd simply go with a player T.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Billy, In the OP it was a simple substitution during a dead ball - no DQ involved, so it's not relevant to the situation.

Sorry. Again. 'Tis the season. Too much nog.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Cam makes a good point. I assume it was obvious in the OP that the mouthy one was the one for whom the sub came in, but there could be some question; in which case I'd simply go with a player T.

Snaq,

No argument if there's any question, but in my experience that doesn't happen very often. 99% of the time the sub coming in knows who they're replacing and tells them as they enter the court - that player then heads for the bench. If the coach wanted something different, he needs to correct it right away before that kid leaves the court, because once he does, he's not coming back until time runs off the clock.

Again, not relevant to the OP - as posted it was about as clear as it can be.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Snaq,

No argument if there's any question, but in my experience that doesn't happen very often. 99% of the time the sub coming in knows who they're replacing and tells them as they enter the court - that player then heads for the bench. If the coach wanted something different, he needs to correct it right away before that kid leaves the court, because once he does, he's not coming back until time runs off the clock.

Again, not relevant to the OP - as posted it was about as clear as it can be.

Several times a season I'll see a coach change his mind before the player leaves the court. So at what point does the player become bench personnel?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Several times a season I'll see a coach change his mind before the player leaves the court. So at what point does the player become bench personnel?

The player became bench personnel when his substitute entered the court, even if nobody knew which player momentarily. I would think, in the OP, signal the T, then, when that player goes to the bench, we would know that it is also an indirect on the coach.