Substitute Technical

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

And is an indirect T on the HC as well, as SoMoRef said in his OP.

Unless the player is actually at the bench (and maybe this one was), how do you KNOW that a player walking in the general direction of the bench is the player that is leaving the game.

What if the coach, after the player is whistled for the T, indicates that he wanted a different player subbed out and was only calling that player over to tell him something? Hmmm. Seems unreliable to assume a specific player is bench personnel until they are actually on the bench or have been disqualified and are thus bench personnel by rule.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Unless the player is actually at the bench (and maybe this one was), how do you KNOW that a player walking in the general direction of the bench is the player that is leaving the game.

What if the coach, after the player is whistled for the T, indicates that he wanted a different player subbed out and was only calling that player over to tell him something? Hmmm. Seems unreliable to assume a specific player is bench personnel until they are actually on the bench or have been disqualified and are thus bench personnel by rule.

Cam,

See the OP - nothing in there about the player being called over by the coach. He was leaving the floor after his sub was beckoned to enter and as he was leaving made a comment to the official that earned him a T. As soon as his sub legally enters the court, the player being replaced is bench personnel per 3-4-3. No need to over analyze it or play what if.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

As soon as his sub legally enters the court, the player being replaced is bench personnel per 3-4-3.

Isn't he bench personnel as soon as the head coach is informed that the player is ejected, or for that matter, simply disqualified.?

Also, by mechanic, or rule, isn't the head coach informed before the player in a simple disqualification? How about an ejection?

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Isn't he bench personnel as soon as the head coach is informed that the player is ejected, or for that matter, simply disqualified.?

Also, by mechanic, or rule, isn't the head coach informed before the player in a simple disqualification? How about an ejection?

Billy,

In the OP it was a simple substitution during a dead ball - no DQ involved, so it's not relevant to the situation.

Yes in the event of a DQ, the player becomes bench personnel as soon as the HC is notified.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Billy, In the OP it was a simple substitution during a dead ball - no DQ involved, so it's not relevant to the situation.

Sorry. Again. 'Tis the season. Too much nog.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Cam,

See the OP - nothing in there about the player being called over by the coach. He was leaving the floor after his sub was beckoned to enter and as he was leaving made a comment to the official that earned him a T. As soon as his sub legally enters the court, the player being replaced is bench personnel per 3-4-3. No need to over analyze it or play what if.

Are you sure about that rule reference?

[Adam]

Cam makes a good point. I assume it was obvious in the OP that the mouthy one was the one for whom the sub came in, but there could be some question; in which case I'd simply go with a player T.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Cam makes a good point. I assume it was obvious in the OP that the mouthy one was the one for whom the sub came in, but there could be some question; in which case I'd simply go with a player T.

Snaq,

No argument if there's any question, but in my experience that doesn't happen very often. 99% of the time the sub coming in knows who they're replacing and tells them as they enter the court - that player then heads for the bench. If the coach wanted something different, he needs to correct it right away before that kid leaves the court, because once he does, he's not coming back until time runs off the clock.

Again, not relevant to the OP - as posted it was about as clear as it can be.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Snaq,

No argument if there's any question, but in my experience that doesn't happen very often. 99% of the time the sub coming in knows who they're replacing and tells them as they enter the court - that player then heads for the bench. If the coach wanted something different, he needs to correct it right away before that kid leaves the court, because once he does, he's not coming back until time runs off the clock.

Again, not relevant to the OP - as posted it was about as clear as it can be.

Several times a season I'll see a coach change his mind before the player leaves the court. So at what point does the player become bench personnel?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Several times a season I'll see a coach change his mind before the player leaves the court. So at what point does the player become bench personnel?

The player became bench personnel when his substitute entered the court, even if nobody knew which player momentarily. I would think, in the OP, signal the T, then, when that player goes to the bench, we would know that it is also an indirect on the coach.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The player became bench personnel when his substitute entered the court, even if nobody knew which player momentarily. I would think, in the OP, signal the T, then, when that player goes to the bench, we would know that it is also an indirect on the coach.

I'm not sure I agree (emphasis on "not sure"). If the player becomes bench personnel when his sub enters the court, then the coach can't change his mind at the last second about who's coming out.
Or, the coach can't correct Johnny's mistake when he tells Jimmy to come out instead of Timmy. Because then Jimmy would have to sit a tic.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not sure I agree (emphasis on "not sure"). If the player becomes bench personnel when his sub enters the court, then the coach can't change his mind at the last second about who's coming out.

Sometimes the coach didn't even say until the player is on the court.

Coach: "Get in there!"

player reports, is beckoned, enters

Player: "For who, coach?"

Coach: "_____, get out!"

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Several times a season I'll see a coach change his mind before the player leaves the court. So at what point does the player become bench personnel?

You and the scorer try and determine who was being replaced. If the player being replaced got the "T", then he's bench personnel and the head coach gets an indirect "T". If it wasn't the player being replaced who got the "T", then just give that player the "T" with no indirect "T" to the head coach. And if you can't determine without doubt the identity of the player being replaced, then assess the maximum penalty...which includes an indirect "T" given to the head coach.

Use the direction of case book play 3.3.1SitF iow. Close enough for me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You and the scorer try and determine who was being replaced. If the player being replaced got the "T", then he's bench personnel and the head coach gets an indirect "T". If it wasn't the player being replaced who got the "T", then just give that player the "T" with no indirect "T" to the head coach. And if you can't determine without doubt the identity of the player being replaced, then assess the maximum penalty...which includes an indirect "T" given to the head coach.

Use the direction of case book play 3.3.1SitF iow. Close enough for me.

Works for me.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You and the scorer try and determine who was being replaced. If the player being replaced got the "T", then he's bench personnel and the head coach gets an indirect "T". If it wasn't the player being replaced who got the "T", then just give that player the "T" with no indirect "T" to the head coach. And if you can't determine without doubt the identity of the player being replaced, then assess the maximum penalty...which includes an indirect "T" given to the head coach.

Use the direction of case book play 3.3.1SitF iow. Close enough for me.

Works for me too!