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[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Seriously, though, what shots do you call? You toss the ball (or designate the tosser) and have defined areas of responsibility as the referee, but the R's responsibilities don't include telling the rest of the crew how to work the game.

Never said it did.

The shots I call are related directly to the referee's responsibilities. Most specifically, that's addressing any issues that might occur with the table crew and the proper administration of the game. I can't, and I'm not going to, over rule a call but as the R I'm going to make sure we properly penalize anything that's called. We're going to discuss situations as needed and if a decision has to be made, I'll make it.

For example, this happened in a game two years ago when we had a fill-in.

Second half, A1 is holding the ball in the low post when B1 attempts to grab it. A1 is doing a good job avoiding the held ball when there's a whistle from the trail. TWEET, "TIMEOUT!" He grants a timeout to Coach B. Coach A gives me a "WTF" look? I have to agree.

We grant the timeout to B. After the timeout, I explained to her that A1 had possession of the ball and that the timeout should not have been granted. As such, it's A's ball on the endline.

Had I not been the R, the situation could have been more difficult to correct.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Never said it did.

The "shots" I call are related directly to the referee's responsibilities. Most specifically, that's addressing any issues that might occur with the table crew and the proper administration of the game. I can't, and I'm not going to, over rule a call but as the R I'm going to make sure we properly penalize anything that's called. We're going to discuss situations as needed and if a decision has to be made, I'll make it.

For example, this happened in a game two years ago when we had a fill-in.

Second half, A1 is holding the ball in the low post when B1 attempts to grab it. A1 is doing a good job avoiding the held ball when there's a whistle from the trail. TWEET, "TIMEOUT!" He grants a timeout to Coach B. Coach A gives me a "WTF" look? I have to agree.

We grant the timeout to B. After the timeout, I explained to her that A1 had possession of the ball and that the timeout should not have been granted. As such, it's A's ball on the endline.

Had I not been the R, the situation could have been more difficult to correct.

Why? Any official can screw that up and once the whistle blows the only choice is to enforce it as an IW and give the ball back to A. I can make that mistake if I'm the R, U1, or U2. If the R granted that timeout, I would make sure that I stepped in and made sure that we got it right.

I don't see any magical powers required here.

I usually let the junior person (if I'm working with a stranger) "be the R" if only to let that person lead the pregame, etc. Once the game starts, it's usually obvious if one official's stronger than the other, anyway.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Why? Any official can screw that up and once the whistle blows the only choice is to enforce it as an IW and give the ball back to A.

Umm...if B's coach requested the TO, and it was incorrectly granted (because A still had the ball), the TO is still awared and taken under Fed. rules. It's an IW only under NCAA rules, I believe.

Maybe that's why Tony needed to step in as the R.

But, otherwise, I agree with both of you. Of course, there aren't any "magical powers" associated with the duty, but sometimes a stronger personality is needed on a crew, and that person is usually better off being the R.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Umm...if B's coach requested the TO, and it was incorrectly granted (because A still had the ball), the TO is still awared and taken under Fed. rules. It's an IW only under NCAA rules, I believe.

Maybe that's why Tony needed to step in as the R.

But, otherwise, I agree with both of you. Of course, there aren't any "magical powers" associated with the duty, but sometimes a stronger personality is needed on a crew, and that person is usually better off being the R.

The *whistle* is an IW. The timeout is then granted by rule.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The *whistle* is an IW. The timeout is then granted by rule.

Ok, figured you knew that.

I only wanted to point that out to newbies that might want to simply say "never mind" and not grant the TO. I happen to "own" this rule because of...ahem...experience.

[Scuba_ref]

can declare a forfeit, that is a pretty big shot to call. Did it once at a church ball game (of course) where I was the R the U1 and the U2.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I happen to "own" this rule because of...ahem...experience.

And I own it too.....recently. Thankfully, it was in a fall, developmental league.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by grunewar

And I own it too.....recently. Thankfully, it was in a fall, developmental league.

The nice thing about ownership of a rule is that you rarely go out and buy the same model again.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Why? Any official can screw that up and once the whistle blows the only choice is to enforce it as an IW and give the ball back to A. I can make that mistake if I'm the R, U1, or U2. If the R granted that timeout, I would make sure that I stepped in and made sure that we got it right.

That's great unless you get the occasional idiot assigned with you. What if the guy who you made the R says, "No, I'm the referee and this is what we're going to do"? Then we have a problem on the floor where officials are disagreeing with each other. For example:

I was working the bases in a rec league baseball game a few years ago. As the pitcher came set while looking at the runner at 2nd, the batter stepped out of the box. The pitcher started his motion and stopped when he saw the batter out of the box. The idiot behind the plate called a balk. I tried to explain that it was clearly defined in the rules that this was not a balk. Coach B also knew the rule and it didn't take long to get ugly. In the end, the idiot wouldn't listen.

So please don't tell me it can't be an advantage to be the head official in such a situation. No, my way, that's not going to happen when I have a choice.

I don't see any magical powers required here.

Magical? No. By rule? Yes. They're listed in rules 2-3 and 2-5.

I usually let the junior person (if I'm working with a stranger) "be the R" if only to let that person lead the pregame, etc. Once the game starts, it's usually obvious if one official's stronger than the other, anyway.

I can have the junior person give the pregame. I can even have him toss the ball if I want to. I don't need to make him the R to do that.

There's no right or wrong here. If that works for you, great. Hope it doesn't bite you in the a$$ some day. My way works for me and that's the way I will continue to work it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I don't see any magical powers required here.

IAABO mechanics mandate that when a technical foul is charged to the head coach, then the referee, and only the referee, will inform the head coach that he, or she, is required to sit down.

Here, in our little corner of the Constitution State, we have decided to ignore that mechanic. We have the noncalling official infom the head coach that he, or she, is required to sit down.

I just discovered that this season. Got that question wrong on the IAABO mechanics exam.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Seriously, though, what shots do you call? You toss the ball (or designate the tosser) and have defined areas of responsibility as the referee, but the R's responsibilities don't include telling the rest of the crew how to work the game.
...

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Never said it did.

The shots I call are related directly to the referee's responsibilities. ...
Had I not been the R, the situation could have been more difficult to correct.

Well, in this situation, who was or wasn't the 'R' definitely affected the game.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Well, in this situation, who was or wasn't the 'R' definitely affected the game.

Problem is that even if he was the R that poster may not have been able to do anything. Some crusty veterans (whose main crust is the one that forms on their rulebooks) simply won't yield and simply don't care who the R is. There's a fine line between "being the R" and having a situation escalate into a full argument on the court between the two officials.

Trust me, about this time last year I was posting about a similar situation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Well, in this situation, who was or wasn't the 'R' definitely affected the game.

This is EXACTLY why I am always the R when I have a fill-in.

If I'm in this situation and I've allowed the fill-in to be the R and he refuses to handle it properly like the R is this thread did, there's nothing I can do about it. And it's my *** that'll get chewed the next day.

No, it's not gonna happen to me. If we screw up, it's because I screwed up and I'm responsible. It won't be because I let someone else be the R who wouldn't listen to me when I knew he was wrong.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

This is EXACTLY why I am always the R when I have a fill-in.

If I'm in this situation and I've allowed the fill-in to be the R and he refuses to handle it properly like the R is this thread did, there's nothing I can do about it. And it's my *** that'll get chewed the next day.

No, it's not gonna happen to me. If we screw up, it's because I screwed up and I'm responsible. It won't be because I let someone else be the R who wouldn't listen to me when I knew he was wrong.

Easy enough when you are working with a regular crew and/or a fill-in where you are a well-known quantity who can easily assert your authority. It becomes a lot more difficult in the scenario where one is working a lower class game (many of us have forgotten that experience) where one or more of the officials are either green or think that they're 30 year vets who could stop learning 15 years ago. You can't have an argument on the court between partners and sometimes it's better to swallow your pride and allow an incorrect ruling to stand rather than to show divisiveness with the crew. If your area teaches that the Us give deference to the R in a situation where one of the Us alone makes a ruling, then I guess we have different operating environments.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Easy enough when you are working with a regular crew and/or a fill-in where you are a well-known quantity who can easily assert your authority.

Rich, that's been my whole point from the get-go.

I have never said this works in every situation, everywhere, for everybody.

I said this is what I do when I have a fill-in on my crew and I am assigned as the R by the booking agent.

Do what works for you.