Contact, Wait for It, Miss, Tweet.

[bainsey]

How do you folks feel about this, as a general practice?

A-1 shoots, B-2 makes advantageous contact on A-1, official holds his whistle, ball rolls off the rim, official whistles the foul.

Agree, disagree, or gray area?

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by bainsey

How do you folks feel about this, as a general practice?

A-1 shoots, B-2 makes advantageous contact on A-1, official holds his whistle, ball rolls off the rim, official whistles the foul.

Agree, disagree, or gray area?

Slippery slope. 10 years ago, that was called "game management". Some supervisors still eschew 3-point plays. I would stay away from that. Call what the film would show.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bainsey

How do you folks feel about this, as a general practice?

A-1 shoots, B-2 makes advantageous contact on A-1, official holds his whistle, ball rolls off the rim, official whistles the foul.

Agree, disagree, or gray area?

Disagree. You're penalizing a player just for making a shot if you don't call the foul. And doing so after you've already decided that the shooter was put at a disadvantage with the contact makes that decision even more ridiculous.

A foul is a foul. Call the damn thing the same at both ends of the court from the beginning to the end of the game. And don't think so damn much. Note:intended for everyone, not just bainsey.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bainsey

How do you folks feel about this, as a general practice?

A-1 shoots, B-2 makes advantageous contact on A-1,...

Why does it matter what happens after this?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bainsey

How do you folks feel about this, as a general practice?

A-1 shoots, B-2 makes advantageous contact on A-1, official holds his whistle, ball rolls off the rim, official whistles the foul.

Agree, disagree, or gray area?

Only if it's "marginal" contact.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bainsey

How do you folks feel about this, as a general practice?

A-1 shoots, B-2 makes advantageous contact on A-1, official holds his whistle, ball rolls off the rim, official whistles the foul.

Agree, disagree, or gray area?

Bainsey:

Reading your play reminds me of the baseball umpiring tape called: "See a Balk. Call a Balk."

My advice to you in this play is: "See a foul, call a foul."

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

It is a factor. I would not say it is "the" factor. But it certainly is a factor. And anyone says you call fouls without knowing something about the result of the contact (which does not have necessarily have to do with the ball going in the basket is lying or does not have very good judgment IMO). And yes it usually is a bigger factor on marginal contact.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is a factor. I would not say it is "the" factor. But it certainly is a factor. And anyone says you call fouls without knowing something about the result of the contact (which does not have necessarily have to do with the ball going in the basket is lying or does not have very good judgment IMO). And yes it usually is a bigger factor on marginal contact.

In the original post, bainsey said that B2 fouled A1. Note...he unambiguously said that B2 fouled A1. He didn't say that there might have been a possibility of incidental contact. We knew the result of the contact because bainsey told us. He told us that the result of the contact was B2 gaining an advantage through the contact. That's what's known as a "foul".

Put me down for not having good judgment then, because I ain't lying when I say that if B2 fouls A1, every official in the world should call the damn foul imo. The contact may have been marginal but the contact was definitely illegal, not incidental. Bainsey flat out told us that when he told us that the defender gained an advantage through the contact.

You'd really allow a defender to gain an advantage through a foul? I can see waiting to see if the contact actually gave the defender an advantage or not, and ignoring the contact if you felt that there was no advantage gained. But when we are told that there was absolutely no doubt that an advantage was gained?

Lah me......we just ain't gonna agree on that one.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

In the original post, bainsey said that B2 fouled A1. Note...he unambiguously said that B2 fouled A1. He didn't say that there might have been a possibility of incidental contact. He stated that B2 definitely fouled A1.

When you say someone is fouled, that is completely a judgment. It is not necessarily a fact or something that people will not disagree with. I know I have called a foul that when seen on tape or even immediately after I blow the whistle I may just disagree with. So when you say someone is fouled, it is your judgment on the play, not something that cannot be disputed.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Put me down for not having good judgment then, because I ain't lying when I say that if B2 fouls A1, every official in the world should call the damn foul imo. The contact may have been marginal but the contact was definitely illegal, not incidental. Bainsey flat out told us that.

I take his comments as much more of a philosophical question, not a stated fact. If I do not call a foul, it is not a foul as it relates to the game. If it should be a foul or not is up to those observing the contest being officiated.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You'd really allow a defender to gain an advantage through a foul? I can see waiting to see if the contact actually gave the defender an advantage or not, and ignoring the contact if you felt that there was no advantage gained. But when we are told that there was absolutely no doubt that an advantage was gained?

Lah me......we just ain't gonna agree on that one.

I did not say I would pass on a foul that I clearly think is a foul. I said that I judge contact based on a lot of factors. I will put it in another context. There is a lot of contact on rebounds in many aspects of the game. I know that I judge the contact on those plays based on what happened to the player and the result of the play. Unless the play is not rough or not basketball related, I will factor in things like did the player end up with the ball? Did the player keep his balance? What other types of contact did we allow to take place in that game? If I can do that in that situation, why are the shots result totally off limits. And yes, the rebounding foul philosophy is taught at many camps and by many officials to judge if advantage or disadvantage took place. So yes we will just have to disagree on this, because I always consider the result. Even in the NCAA's usage of absolutes are not in the rulebook, but a guideline used to call a foul. And the result of the play is often the reason for the absolute to determine a foul.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When you say someone is fouled, that is completely a judgment.

Ah no, it's not.

He created a hypothetical situation and said that B1 gained advantage by contacting A1. That's a foul and that's the scenario he setup.

He could have simply asked the question, "When a shooter is fouled, do you wait and see if the basket is good before making the call?"

I'm sure you'll come back with some stupid BS reply like you have for over 10 years but when somebody asks a question and says a foul occurred, then a foul occurred.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Ah no, it's not.

Yes it is. Because every single time I am at a camp or meeting or training we have there are different opinions on plays. For my association we often use video of plays and show foul and violation calls and I cannot think of a single time where everyone agrees with all the plays. Whether is it block/charge calls or travels, those observing will disagree. Now maybe they all agree on everything they see in your area, but I have yet to experience this and certainly not on plays that this OP talked about. My partners and I had a big disagreement over several plays we had where the basket counted. It was pointed out to me that "normally you would let that go." I disagreed, but that just goes to show even people you share a basic philosophy with will disagree about the same play. But it is all BS because you say it is.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes it is. Because every single time I am at a camp or meeting or training we have there are different opinions on plays. For my association we often use video of plays and show foul and violation calls and I cannot think of a single time where everyone agrees with all the plays. Whether is it block/charge calls or travels, those observing will disagree. Now maybe they all agree on everything they see in your area, but I have yet to experience this and certainly not on plays that this OP talked about. My partners and I had a big disagreement over several plays we had where the basket counted. It was pointed out to me that "normally you would let that go." I disagreed, but that just goes to show even people you share a basic philosophy with will disagree about the same play. But it is all BS because you say it is.

Peace

Jeff, you are arguing with the basic premise of the OP. There was advantage written into the scenario. You seem to be saying there might not have been.

Or are you saying there can be advantage and no foul?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Jeff, you are arguing with the basic premise of the OP. There was advantage written into the scenario. You seem to be saying there might not have been.

Or are you saying there can be advantage and no foul?

He doesn't get it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Jeff, you are arguing with the basic premise of the OP. There was advantage written into the scenario. You seem to be saying there might not have been.

Or are you saying there can be advantage and no foul?

The OP asked two philosophical questions. I was not even concerned with the play or if or if not a foul should have been called. I feel that we decide things on many factors and the ball going in or likely to go in is a factor in my opinion. If I felt it was the only factor I would never call a foul on a shot where I count the basket. I have too many times on tape where I do that. And one case was clearly in a game that anyone could have seen on TV last February.

Peace

[Terrapins Fan]

Almost every game I officiate, is filmed. Coaches bring film to our executive board all of the time complaining about EVERYTHING, 5 second closely guarded, fouls, carries. EVERYTHING.

If you see it, call it. If you don't in time you will hear about it.