The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 12, 2010, 12:18am
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
....the ball going in or likely to go in is a factor in my opinion.
As noted above, your opinion, which I am sure is shared by others, is not supported by rule.
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 12, 2010, 12:41am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,519
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
As noted above, your opinion, which I am sure is shared by others, is not supported by rule.
I think we spend too much time here talking about what is supported by rule as if everything we do is supported by rule. If that was the case then there would be no need for these sites and many officiating publications or trainings.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 12, 2010, 01:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Earth- For Now
Posts: 872
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I think we spend too much time here talking about what is supported by rule as if everything we do is supported by rule. If that was the case then there would be no need for these sites and many officiating publications or trainings.

Peace
I agree. Judgment is a huge part of officiating.

The OP talks about "advantageous contact." Well, what's advantageous can be a matter or opinion and judgment. In some cases, whether or not the ball goes in can be part of deciding whether or not the contact was indeed advantageous.

In certain situations, I will factor in whether or not the ball went in. And I think this is what the OP was getting at. Obvious contact, of course, you have a whistle no matter what. But there are instances where there is marginal contact and you have to decide whether or not it's advantageous.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 12, 2010, 01:30am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,519
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
In certain situations, I will factor in whether or not the ball went in. And I think this is what the OP was getting at. Obvious contact, of course, you have a whistle no matter what. But there are instances where there is marginal contact and you have to decide whether or not it's advantageous.
You didn't get the memo I see. You cannot talk about "marginal contact" anymore.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 12, 2010, 01:33am
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
The OP talks about "advantageous contact." Well, what's advantageous can be a matter or opinion and judgment. In some cases, whether or not the ball goes in can be part of deciding whether or not the contact was indeed advantageous.
The debate in this thread is not whether the contact was advantageous. It was. That is a given.

To paraphrase and expand the OP: As A1 goes up to shoot, B1 grabs his arm with such force that he is spun sideways. A1 is still able to muscle the ball up and into the basket. Since the shot went in, should the contact be ignored?

NO WAY
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 12, 2010, 01:46am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Earth- For Now
Posts: 872
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
The debate in this thread is not whether the contact was advantageous. It was. That is a given.

To paraphrase and expand the OP: As A1 goes up to shoot, B1 grabs his arm with such force that he is spun sideways. A1 is still able to muscle the ball up and into the basket. Since the shot went in, should the contact be ignored?

NO WAY
Where does the OP state anything like the scenario you just described? If it was as obvious as above then of course you have a foul regardless. But I don't sense that is the kind of play he is talking about.

Maybe he mispoke when he said "advantageous." Because what I am talking about, and I assume the OP and JRutledge are too, is situations where there is marginal contact and you take into account whether or not the ball went in to decide if it was indeed contact that was advantageous.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 12, 2010, 01:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,280
This garbage about waiting to see if the ball goes in and passing on a foul if it does is a reason why we as officials get a bad rap from outside observers. Quit trying to be so damn philosophical and just call illegal contact as it should be called. If the ball goes in in the situation in the OP, tough luck for Team B who fouled the shooter I guess. Maybe they'll learn next time.

In our area, we have been instructed to call illegal contact and throw "advantage/disadvantage" out the window. We are told that we will never get in trouble for calling fouls as opposed to "passing" on "marginal contact". Also, I VERY rarely if ever hear from coaches during games that we're calling the game too tightly.
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 12, 2010, 01:52am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Earth- For Now
Posts: 872
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
This garbage about waiting to see if the ball goes in and passing on a foul if it does is a reason why we as officials get a bad rap from outside observers. Quit trying to be so damn philosophical and just call illegal contact as it should be called. If the ball goes in in the situation in the OP, tough luck for Team B who fouled the shooter I guess. Maybe they'll learn next time.

In our area, we have been instructed to call illegal contact and throw "advantage/disadvantage" out the window. We are told that we will never get in trouble for calling fouls as opposed to "passing" on "marginal contact". Also, I VERY rarely if ever hear from coaches during games that we're calling the game too tightly.
Wow. Could not disagree more.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 12, 2010, 08:27am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
I agree. Judgment is a huge part of officiating.

The OP talks about "advantageous contact." Well, what's advantageous can be a matter or opinion and judgment. In some cases, whether or not the ball goes in can be part of deciding whether or not the contact was indeed advantageous.

In certain situations, I will factor in whether or not the ball went in. And I think this is what the OP was getting at. Obvious contact, of course, you have a whistle no matter what. But there are instances where there is marginal contact and you have to decide whether or not it's advantageous.
Sigh.....

You were already told in the original post that the contact was advantageous. Bainsey already made that decision for you. That was his opinion and judgment. Are you saying that bainsey lied to you...and us?

RIF!
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 12, 2010, 08:37am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
Maybe he mispoke when he said "advantageous." Because what I am talking about, and I assume the OP and JRutledge are too, is situations where there is marginal contact and you take into account whether or not the ball went in to decide if it was indeed contact that was advantageous.
Our responses were based on the assumption that bainsey actually meant what he said and didn't "mispoke". Bainsey...the OP... didn't mention "marginal contact" in any way. You and Jeff want to inject that into the situation. Well, any discussion of "marginal contact" is completely irrelevant because bainsey has already told us the contact was illegal because it was "advantageous".

If you want to discuss whether marginal contact on a shot should be a foul or not, you need to start a brand new thread. That particular discussion has got dickity-boo to do with this thread. It's 2 completely different and disparate discussions.

As I said, reading is fundamental. And comprehension is also necessary.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 12, 2010, 08:54am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
This garbage about waiting to see if the ball goes in and passing on a foul if it does is a reason why we as officials get a bad rap from outside observers. Quit trying to be so damn philosophical and just call illegal contact as it should be called. If the ball goes in in the situation in the OP, tough luck for Team B who fouled the shooter I guess. Maybe they'll learn next time.

In our area, we have been instructed to call illegal contact and throw "advantage/disadvantage" out the window. We are told that we will never get in trouble for calling fouls as opposed to "passing" on "marginal contact". Also, I VERY rarely if ever hear from coaches during games that we're calling the game too tightly.
My personal feeling is that it's more of a comprehension problem. They're confusing incidental contact with illegal contact.

We do have to decide if "marginal contact" is a foul. But when the contact occurs is the point where we have to decide whether that marginal contact was incidental or illegal contact. But that decision is solely dependant on the actual contact, not whether the ball went in or not after the contact. There's just too many factors involved to adjudicate the play that way...the athleticism of the shooter, the strength of the shooter, the determination of the shooter, etc. We should always be striving for calling uniformity for these types of plays from beginning to end and at both ends of the court. You can't possibly do that if there is a variation in the shooters with regards to their individual athleticism, strength, determination, etc. How can anybody possibly justify calling a foul on a play just because the shooter wasn't as strong as another player in muscling the ball into the basket after being similarly fouled with the identical contact on a play that was previously no-called?

We are also trying to get our guys to do exactly what you guys have been instructed to do. Decide whether the contact was illegal or not at the point of contact, and then try to call it that way uniformly at both ends from beginning to end.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 08:58am.
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 12, 2010, 10:08am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
In our area, we have been instructed to call illegal contact and throw "advantage/disadvantage" out the window.
So, uh, how do you distinguish between incidental contact and illegal contact?
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 12, 2010, 10:28am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
So, uh, how do you distinguish between incidental contact and illegal contact?
They don't. In other news, they average 70 FTs per game.
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 12, 2010, 10:34am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
They don't. In other news, they average 70 FTs per game.
I'm just picturing all the layups that get taken away when the dribbler beats his defender but gets slapped on the arm as he goes by.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 12, 2010, 12:04pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
So, uh, how do you distinguish between incidental contact and illegal contact?
I think that they still advocate using advantage/disadvantage as one of the criteria at the point of contact in determining whether the contact was incidental or illegal. Iow they're not waiting and trying to inject advantage/disadvantage in after the contact has ended.

I think....

zm1283 should clarify that in case I be thinkin' wrongly.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I can hardly wait Mark Padgett Basketball 26 Sun Mar 08, 2009 08:10am
Tweet tweet tweet... jsblanton Basketball 46 Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:36am
Helmet contact / LSU vs. Miss. State l3will Football 13 Sun Sep 02, 2007 02:44am
But wait! There's more! assignmentmaker Basketball 8 Mon Jan 16, 2006 07:22pm
Double Tweet williebfree Basketball 7 Mon Jan 14, 2002 10:06am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:57am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1